[asiafish]

Apple is a VERY divisive topic. For some strange reason, normal, rational people who are not connected in any way to Apple Corp. or its competitors spend huge amounts of time on this other forums bashing, praising, lying, truthing, defending, attacking and otherwise constantly discussing a company that, if you count, only sells 5 basic models of laptop computers (13, 15 and 17 inch MacBook Pro, MacBook Air and plastic MacBook), 4 basic models of desktop computers (21 and 27 inch iMac, Mac Pro and Mac Mini), two operating systems (OS X and OS X Server) and about a half dozen applications (Logic, Final Cut, iWork, etc.). Look at Dell, or Lenovo, or HP, for instance. I would bet that Dell's business desktop line alone has more variations that everything Apple sells, but there is no Dell forum on PCWorld and when Dell announce a new model, maybe it will get a review, maybe not, but nobody really has much to say.

These days Apple is doing rather well. In years past, Apple was in serious danger of bankruptcy. The only constant, however poorly or well the company is doing, is that everyone either loves or hates or is neutral about Apple, but PASSIONATELY LOVES, PASSIONATELY HATES or is PASSIONATELY NEUTRAL about Apple. I doubt anyone is passionately anything about Toshiba, or Acer. There are ThinkPad fanatics (of which I count myself a member), VAIO fans (never cared for Sony) and Toughbook lovers (never really used one). Apple, more than any other company, however, seems to create passion in all who consider them.

Is it the hardware? The software? The corporation itself?

I like Apple as a company. Not because I think they walk on water or anything like that. Simply, I like them because whenever I've had trouble with Apple gear, and I have had trouble, Apple always has worked hard to make it right. I liked IBM and still like Lenovo for the exact same reason, and feel the same about Mercedes-Benz cars, Hermann Miller chairs, Bosch kitchen appliances and Brenthaven bags. Expensive products one and all, but backed by companies that care more if you will buy another of their products than about cutting warranty costs on your current product.

My last Mercedes had what should have been a very expensive repair at 103,000 miles. The car had a 100,000 mile warranty, and Mercedes covered it without me having to ask. 13,000 miles later, I bought another Mercedes regardless of the new Audi A4 being a nicer car. I felt like a valued customer, and stayed with a brand that had earned my loyalty through superior service. I can tell similar stories about computers. I had an IBM ThinkPad T20 that was repair four times for motherboard issues. The computer had a three year warranty, and when it failed at age four, IBM apologized and sent me a new ThinkPad T42p as a replacement. Lenovo hasn't replaced any of my computers yet, but thats because none of them needed replacement. They have, through overnight shipment, sent me repair parts, even when I was halfway around the world, and never with so much as the slightest hassle. Again, excellent service that has made me a loyal ThinkPad customer.

Apple is the same way. In fact, my worst ever computer experience was with the then-new plastic MacBook (original CoreDuo) of May 2006. I bought the high-end black one, and it ran so hot as to shut down at random. Apple replaced it, arranging it through a retail store so I wouldn't have to wait for shipping. The new one had the same problem, and again Apple replaced. The third had a different problem, the backlight was dead. It could have been a shipping problem, production, who knows, but again Apple replaced it, and gave me a Mac Mini for my trouble (they asked what I wanted). The fourth MacBook was perfect, but I had lost confidence, sold it, and bought another ThinkPad. Still, when Rev B came out and the teething problems were solved, I didn't hesitate to buy my daughter a new Core2Duo MacBook for school. While I didn't trust those first-generation plastic MacBooks anymore, my trust for Apple the corporation was actually increased by this experience.

I don't know what it is that makes Apple-haters hate the company so much. I don't know why Apple-fanatics are so fanatical either. I like most of their products and trust the company to stand behind them, but that is as far as it goes for me. I love my Bosch dishwasher too, it is silent and the one time I had one break, Bosch sent a technician the next morning and it was repaired right the first time. I recommend Bosch dishwashers to people who ask how I like mine, but you won't see me or anyone else calling people stupid because they paid less for a Kenmore or paid more for a Miele.

I don't even think its the fact that Apple uses a different OS. Most people, in my opinion, don't really care about an OS. A few years ago when PDAs were still news people loved the Pocket PC OS. By the time smart phones replaced PDAs Pocket PC became Windows Mobile and people still liked it. They may very well like it again in 2011 when WinMo 7 comes out, but WinMo 6 is a dead product. Where are the former Pocket PC and Windows Mobile users now? They are on iPhone, BlackBerry, Symbian, Android or one of the many proprietary phone OS platforms and care about the cool features like visual voicemail, GPS and games, but could care less whether it is Symbian, BlackBerry, WebOS or some Linux variant used to launch those cool features. I doubt most iPhone owners even care that it is an Apple product or based on OS X, rather they care that it is a decent phone that is easy to use and has lots of cool applications. Are they loyal Apple-fanatics? Not likely.

So if there is nothing all that exceptional for the Apple-fanatics to be so fanatical about, what is so bad to bring about all of the Apple hatred? Again, I just don't see it.

Looking at computers, Apple, like many companies, sells a range of products in a chosen market space. That particular market, for computers at least, is the premium price category. Does anyone criticize Mercedes-Benz or Bentley for not selling at $12,000 economy car? Of course not. Did Mercedes-Benz or Bentley ever say that everyone should drive an expensive luxury car or take the bus? Of course not. Cars are a huge market, with companies competing at the low end, the middle, the high end and the ultra-high end. Some companies compete in more than portion of the market, others limit themselves to single market. Some companies even grow or shrink over time. Volkswagen introduced a fantastic high-end ($100,000) luxury car called the Phaeton a number of years ago, with an exotic W12 engine (three banks of four cylinders). It was an amazing car, but it didn't sell, and no longer is producted. Volkswagen competes in the mid-range only. BMW tried to extend down to the upper low end with the 318ti hatchback in the 90s and Mercedes tried to edge into that market a decade later with the C230 hatchback. Both were fairly slow sellers and those brands have retreated to their traditional high-end markets only, using other brands (Mini and Smart) to reach lower. Hyundai, on the other hand, did a masterful job of moving from the low end to the mid range a decade ago, and is not starting a push into the high end.

So where does that leave Apple? Apple is at the high end, and chooses to limit itself to that market. Why should anyone be upset about that? Does anyone really care that Rolex doesn't make a $100 plastic watch? Swatch has lots of great watches that keep time just as well, but competes in a totally different market. You don't see hordes of angry Swatch enthusiasts whining about Rolex being overpriced and a poor buy, or any Rolex buyers looking down and saying that a Swatch, or Casio, or whatever will make you late for work.

Apple-haters have two arguments they repeat endlessly. First, they say that an Apple PC is the same as any other PC (same parts) only double the price. Second, they say that Apple computers are too limited so nobody should buy one. Both are stupid arguments that hold no water. Macs use a different OS, and that different OS is better at some things and worse at others. Which is better? There is no answer without knowing what you want to do with it. For a little more money, the Mac can also run Windows, both natively and virtually, making it even more flexible, though at a price.

As for the parts, what Apple-haters don't understand is that it isn't about the plastics on the motherboard or the other parts that you don't see, like the hard drive, RAM and processor. Those parts ARE IDENTICAL and if that was all a computer was made of, then their argument would be correct. Its the parts people actually can touch that make the difference, and not only for Apple, but for other high-end PCs as well. ThinkPads cost more than budget PCs partly because their cases are just made of better plastics. Latitudes cost more than Inspirons or Vostros because they have magnesium rollcages inside and are built to be easier to work on and to last longer. A premium laptop may very well be slower and perform worse than a cheaper consumer model, but it is built for durability, for comfort, for light weight, for long battery life and a number of other intangibles, including look and feel, that cost more money than is spent on the budget models. Does that mean everyone should buy premium? Of course not. But it doesn't mean that premium is overpriced, just that its more expensive. One truth in retail that goes back all through history is that a smart shopper will get what he or she pays for. You just cannot buy a car as safe, solid, comfortable and durable as a Mercedes-Benz for the price of a Hyundai. That doesn't make the Hyundai a bad car, far from it, but its no Mercedes.

You cannot buy an $800 15" laptop as nice as a MacBook Pro. Not because the $800 model isn't made by Apple, but because you have to spend more than $800 to get into the $2000 quality class. THere are plenty of very nice 15" PC laptops that are as nicer or perhaps nicer than the MacBook Pro, but they will cost about the same, maybe more, maybe less, but NONE will be in the $800 class.

I love the response people have to Apple. Every time Apple announces a product, people either think it will save the world, or will doom the company to bankruptcy. Both groups are quite hilarious, actually.

This post has been edited by coastie65: 24 January 2011 - 06:14 AM

[Grr8008]

1. Nice rant. Or should I say, informed rant. By this I mean that you were being a little...angry/annoyed but unlike many other rants you actually put the facts on the table, and your personal experiences to the criticism of the public. So, nice one in that it is extremely informative and intelligent.

2. I agree with half of your post. I dislike apple, but not with a passion, and not with a grudge. Nor is it really related to the computers. I strongly dislike their advertising. I think that it is a bit of a risky maneuver, but it also has some advantages. Of course, they contradict themselves multiple times if you want to be factual. It is a bit of a risky maneuver because they have built themselves up to be unbreakable, with numerous layers of armor around them. The commercials proclaim that they have zero viruses, hardly any problems, and absolutely nothing is inferior to Windows. Lets count these off: zero viruses? Pretty much, for now. Hardly any Problems? Yeah, I would say so. Is absolutely nothing inferior? Not at all. I can think of a few. So they are pretty much sitting high and pretty on their reputation. I hear tons of people saying, "Macs are awesome because they are practically invincible!" Is this everyone? No. But they have a good part of the average consumer population fooled. Now lets imagine that their market share grows so that there are people making viruses for them. One crack in the armor. Then Apple, having been criticized for the viruses are jumped on by the competitors. The ads blast at them. They start to focus even more on their consumer services. But now they are in a tight corner. They make a few mistakes in the OS, some of their product begin to have design flaws. Another crack in the armor. Then windows comes out with a massive new feature of some kind. Mac has nothing to compete it with. The last nail in the coffin and we say adios to Macs. Apple is no longer the trustworthy, everything is perfect, company. This is just a possible scenario. But it affects everything. For example PC means personal computer. Not windows computer. It means Mac, Windows, and Linux, all together. Ask someone what kind of computer they have. Often they will just say PC. As in windows computer. It is silly, but true. You have a company with so much of a reputation that they practically affect the dictionary with an ad!

3. So what do I agree with? I agree Apple makes fantastic products. A little overpriced in some areas yes, (I'm looking at you Ipod nano!) but overall great build quality. I may not like some parts of the macbooks like the touchpad, but the keyboard, hardware and software? Amazing. Their customer service is also fantastic. So my problem is not with the products. The products are great and professional. A little pricey for basic tasks, but for other things they are great.

4. So to sum it up, I dislike Apple the company, for their advertising, and for their annoying ability to pounce on everything that annoys the average windows user. Of course they are right, many of those things are a problem with windows, but many of them are either old problems (from old versions of windows) or just things that the mac improved on and aren't really problems at all. But I love apple the product maker. Their products are (usually) innovative, sometimes game changing even, and they are pretty amazing in the usability department. If this rant of mine is not clear, feel free to question it, and I will answer if I can. I can live happily with apple, but they will still bug me once in a while. And as much as I'm interested to see what would happen if Apple ever collapsed from some cracks in their armor, I personally hope it never happens because competition on any level is good. I hope that my rant was as intelligent and informative as asiafish's, and feel free to question and disagree with it. It is my opinion, and I hope that everyone can if not agree with it, at least understand it.

This post has been edited by Grr8008: 03 March 2010 - 04:52 PM

[Car54]

Maybe I'm telegraphing my lack of reading interest or prowess, but, it's been a long time since I read a post this long, and why did I do it, out of curiosity of what you had to say about Apple.

Very nicely written, yet my response as someone who has only known PCs, and Inspiron Notebooks, is this. That what I think stirs up the passion between the 2 main rivals is that in my opinion, Apple users are afraid of seeing the company go belly up. So they passionately implore, harangue, and try to compel the Apple superiority argument to try to get more users to keep the company alive. This in turn bristles a PC user like myself, and thus can become defensive, and thus maybe even passionately so. When I was considering buying my first PC, a friend said that he had a "sweet Mac for me", and sent me "propaganda" (Apple literature, phone numbers) for an Apple purchase, it was as if he was bringing salvation to my soul. That was about 7 years ago, and maybe Apple was on a greater brink of failing back then (maybe due to the success of XP?) so maybe there was a fear, panic, of Apple fans not wanting to see the demise of their beloved, and thus came across as to in your face, thus causing a passionate backlash from PCers?

So in reading your article, what are you paying for again with an Apple? As you said it was not the hardware..is it then the customer service only that your paying for, the name, as I didn't see any other compelling argument in your post, that would make me want to buy an Apple.

Oh, by the way asiafish, nice Poll, made me laugh.

This post has been edited by Car54: 03 March 2010 - 05:57 PM

[Car54]

Grr...good post Your right about the concept of PCs being linked to Windows, compared to what the name in general implies, Personal Computers. Also, like you, I was thinking of my iPod Classic that I bought about 6 weeks ago, and really like it, so yes, good job on that front Apple.

[asiafish]

Car54, on 03 March 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:

Maybe I'm telegraphing my lack of reading interest or prowess, but, it's been a long time since I read a post this long, and why did I do it, out of curiosity of what you had to say about Apple.

Very nicely written, yet my response as someone who has only known PCs, and Inspiron Notebooks, is this. That what I think stirs up the passion between the 2 main rivals is that in my opinion, Apple users are afraid of seeing the company go belly up. So they passionately implore, harangue, and try to compel the Apple superiority argument to try to get more users to keep the company alive. This in turn bristles a PC user like myself, and thus can become defensive, and thus maybe even passionately so. When I was considering buying my first PC, a friend said that he had a "sweet Mac for me", and sent me "propaganda" (Apple literature, phone numbers) for an Apple purchase, it was as if he was bringing salvation to my soul. That was about 7 years ago, and maybe Apple was on a greater brink of failing back then (maybe due to the success of XP?) so maybe there was a fear, panic, of Apple fans not wanting to see the demise of their beloved, and thus came across as to in your face, thus causing a passionate backlash from PCers?

So in reading your article, what are you paying for again with an Apple? As you said it was not the hardware..is it then the customer service only that your paying for, the name, as I didn't see any other compelling argument in your post, that would make me want to buy an Apple.

Oh, by the way asiafish, nice Poll, made me laugh.

I'm not saying that the hardware isn't special, it is, but that a lot of PC hardware is equally special. The way I see things, you get what you pay for. If you pay $400, you will get a $400 computer. A $400 computer is actually very good for many tasks. Good as it may be, a $400 isn't an $800 computer, and an $800 computer isn't a $2000 computer.

Apple has definitely been up and down over the years. I remember buying an IBM PS/2 in college back in 1988 and everyone looked at me funny for buying Windows instead of Mac. A decade later the tables had turned. Another decade and things are a bit more even.

I don't think anyone would argue that Apple is in danger of going out of business these days as they have more cash than many countries. Market share is another thing people like to argue about that really can be twisted to whatever argument you want to make. 5% worldwide sounds dismal. 10% of US sounds poor on OS usage, but sounds pretty good for just one of many PC venders. 50% of the over $1000 market sounds incredible. The fun part is, all of those statistics are fairly close to the truth, its just one's perspective that decides whether Apple is gasping for breath or dominating the market.

[asiafish]

Grr8008, on 03 March 2010 - 04:52 PM, said:

1. Nice rant. Or should I say, informed rant. By this I mean that you were being a little...angry/annoyed but unlike many other rants you actually put the facts on the table, and your personal experiences to the criticism of the public. So, nice one in that it is extremely informative and intelligent.

2. I agree with half of your post. I dislike apple, but not with a passion, and not with a grudge. Nor is it really related to the computers. I strongly dislike their advertising. I think that it is a bit of a risky maneuver, but it also has some advantages. Of course, they contradict themselves multiple times if you want to be factual. It is a bit of a risky maneuver because they have built themselves up to be unbreakable, with numerous layers of armor around them. The commercials proclaim that they have zero viruses, hardly any problems, and absolutely nothing is inferior to Windows. Lets count these off: zero viruses? Pretty much, for now. Hardly any Problems? Yeah, I would say so. Is absolutely nothing inferior? Not at all. I can think of a few. So they are pretty much sitting high and pretty on their reputation. I hear tons of people saying, "Macs are awesome because they are practically invincible!" Is this everyone? No. But they have a good part of the average consumer population fooled. Now lets imagine that their market share grows so that there are people making viruses for them. One crack in the armor. Then Apple, having been criticized for the viruses are jumped on by the competitors. The ads blast at them. They start to focus even more on their consumer services. But now they are in a tight corner. They make a few mistakes in the OS, some of their product begin to have design flaws. Another crack in the armor. Then windows comes out with a massive new feature of some kind. Mac has nothing to compete it with. The last nail in the coffin and we say adios to Macs. Apple is no longer the trustworthy, everything is perfect, company. This is just a possible scenario. But it affects everything. For example PC means personal computer. Not windows computer. It means Mac, Windows, and Linux, all together. Ask someone what kind of computer they have. Often they will just say PC. As in windows computer. It is silly, but true. You have a company with so much of a reputation that they practically affect the dictionary with an ad!

3. So what do I agree with? I agree Apple makes fantastic products. A little overpriced in some areas yes, (I'm looking at you Ipod nano!) but overall great build quality. I may not like some parts of the macbooks like the touchpad, but the keyboard, hardware and software? Amazing. Their customer service is also fantastic. So my problem is not with the products. The products are great and professional. A little pricey for basic tasks, but for other things they are great.

4. So to sum it up, I dislike Apple the company, for their advertising, and for their annoying ability to pounce on everything that annoys the average windows user. Of course they are right, many of those things are a problem with windows, but many of them are either old problems (from old versions of windows) or just things that the mac improved on and aren't really problems at all. But I love apple the product maker. Their products are (usually) innovative, sometimes game changing even, and they are pretty amazing in the usability department. If this rant of mine is not clear, feel free to question it, and I will answer if I can. I can live happily with apple, but they will still bug me once in a while. And as much as I'm interested to see what would happen if Apple ever collapsed from some cracks in their armor, I personally hope it never happens because competition on any level is good. I hope that my rant was as intelligent and informative as asiafish's, and feel free to question and disagree with it. It is my opinion, and I hope that everyone can if not agree with it, at least understand it.

Apple's pricing is a bit high in some categories, a bit low in others, and spot on in most.

Sounds like the advertising is your biggest issue, and yeah, Apple is very in-your-face with its ads. Personally, I find most of the commercials funny, but then, I've never, EVER bought a product because of a commercial. To be fair, I think that it is every company's duty to advertise their products in their most favorable light, and if they can belittle their competition without breaking any laws, so much the better. I happen to think Microsoft has a fantastic product in Windows 7, but their advertising really sucks. No guy or gal in a commercial invented wifi. The laptop hunter ads were also pretty bad. Now those spots with the 4-year-olds editing video, those were terrific, and they should have really pushed that campaign. A successful ad makes the product it is trying to sell look cool. Volkswagen is a great example of a company that really gets advertising, and so is Apple.

[Macman1967]

With seven Macs, I hope that 80-proof Kool-aid is fairly low calorie.

[Car54]

asiafish, on 03 March 2010 - 07:59 PM, said:

Car54, on 03 March 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:

Maybe I'm telegraphing my lack of reading interest or prowess, but, it's been a long time since I read a post this long, and why did I do it, out of curiosity of what you had to say about Apple.

Very nicely written, yet my response as someone who has only known PCs, and Inspiron Notebooks, is this. That what I think stirs up the passion between the 2 main rivals is that in my opinion, Apple users are afraid of seeing the company go belly up. So they passionately implore, harangue, and try to compel the Apple superiority argument to try to get more users to keep the company alive. This in turn bristles a PC user like myself, and thus can become defensive, and thus maybe even passionately so. When I was considering buying my first PC, a friend said that he had a "sweet Mac for me", and sent me "propaganda" (Apple literature, phone numbers) for an Apple purchase, it was as if he was bringing salvation to my soul. That was about 7 years ago, and maybe Apple was on a greater brink of failing back then (maybe due to the success of XP?) so maybe there was a fear, panic, of Apple fans not wanting to see the demise of their beloved, and thus came across as to in your face, thus causing a passionate backlash from PCers?

So in reading your article, what are you paying for again with an Apple? As you said it was not the hardware..is it then the customer service only that your paying for, the name, as I didn't see any other compelling argument in your post, that would make me want to buy an Apple.

Oh, by the way asiafish, nice Poll, made me laugh.

I'm not saying that the hardware isn't special, it is, but that a lot of PC hardware is equally special. The way I see things, you get what you pay for. If you pay $400, you will get a $400 computer. A $400 computer is actually very good for many tasks. Good as it may be, a $400 isn't an $800 computer, and an $800 computer isn't a $2000 computer.

Apple has definitely been up and down over the years. I remember buying an IBM PS/2 in college back in 1988 and everyone looked at me funny for buying Windows instead of Mac. A decade later the tables had turned. Another decade and things are a bit more even.

I don't think anyone would argue that Apple is in danger of going out of business these days as they have more cash than many countries. Market share is another thing people like to argue about that really can be twisted to whatever argument you want to make. 5% worldwide sounds dismal. 10% of US sounds poor on OS usage, but sounds pretty good for just one of many PC venders. 50% of the over $1000 market sounds incredible. The fun part is, all of those statistics are fairly close to the truth, its just one's perspective that decides whether Apple is gasping for breath or dominating the market.

Thank you for your thoughtful assessment of my post asiafish, and not blowing it off....I'm impressed with your open attitude.

Scott

[nonseq]

Guys, let's quit using the "Kool-aid" metaphor. I mean really, in Jonestown what happened right after they drank the Kool-Aid?

I'm not sure why Apple brings out such passion on either side. I do know that in the early days of the Mac, Apple users were pretty darn obnoxious (myself included, I'll confess) but the DOS crowd back in 1984 were really the ones who were threatened by user-centric computing. I think there may be some carry over from that. The conflict is silly, really. Everyone has made a huge contribution to personal computing and even more so with the convergence of data/voice/media/business apps. It's all good and it's getting better.

[asiafish]

nonseq, on 04 March 2010 - 06:51 AM, said:

Guys, let's quit using the "Kool-aid" metaphor. I mean really, in Jonestown what happened right after they drank the Kool-Aid?

I'm not sure why Apple brings out such passion on either side. I do know that in the early days of the Mac, Apple users were pretty darn obnoxious (myself included, I'll confess) but the DOS crowd back in 1984 were really the ones who were threatened by user-centric computing. I think there may be some carry over from that. The conflict is silly, really. Everyone has made a huge contribution to personal computing and even more so with the convergence of data/voice/media/business apps. It's all good and it's getting better.

Sillier still since OS X and Windows are now so similar. Does it really matter if you launch an application from an alias, a shortcut, the dock or the taskbar? How much simpler is it really to press "Command-C" instead of "Control-C" to copy something?

[Car54]

nonseq, on 04 March 2010 - 06:51 AM, said:

Guys, let's quit using the "Kool-aid" metaphor. I mean really, in Jonestown what happened right after they drank the Kool-Aid?

I'm not sure why Apple brings out such passion on either side. I do know that in the early days of the Mac, Apple users were pretty darn obnoxious (myself included, I'll confess) but the DOS crowd back in 1984 were really the ones who were threatened by user-centric computing. I think there may be some carry over from that. The conflict is silly, really. Everyone has made a huge contribution to personal computing and even more so with the convergence of data/voice/media/business apps. It's all good and it's getting better.

lol, talk about the Kool-Aid metphors...Jonestown, lol, next you'll bring in Marshall Applewhite.

[crazy4laptops]

i am a HUGE apple fan on the corporate/biz/enterprise level
its so simple the computers and servers literally run themselves

managing updates/software/remote control is a cinch with Apple Remote desktop 3 (and plus, no anti-virus to maintain/license/install)

i grew up on windows xp and i am an official convert to mac (it only took a month to learn OSX 10.5) i use mac 6.5 out of 7 days a week

but there are things that work better for me on windows... that being photo editing, i don't have the attention span to ride the learning curve of photoshop right now...
so i use alternative programs like paint .net =) (i do HDR edits on the mac tho)

and then there is price... apple products are expensive... snow leopard is the exception (purr)

but all in all apple is solid, fast, powerful, and overall more awesome than windows

[asiafish]

crazy4laptops, on 05 March 2010 - 10:02 AM, said:

i am a HUGE apple fan on the corporate/biz/enterprise level
its so simple the computers and servers literally run themselves

managing updates/software/remote control is a cinch with Apple Remote desktop 3 (and plus, no anti-virus to maintain/license/install)

i grew up on windows xp and i am an official convert to mac (it only took a month to learn OSX 10.5) i use mac 6.5 out of 7 days a week

but there are things that work better for me on windows... that being photo editing, i don't have the attention span to ride the learning curve of photoshop right now...
so i use alternative programs like paint .net =) (i do HDR edits on the mac tho)

and then there is price... apple products are expensive... snow leopard is the exception (purr)

but all in all apple is solid, fast, powerful, and overall more awesome than windows

On the OS level there are things Windows does better too, like offline file sync, one of my favorite features, still doesn't exist on the Mac without 3rd party utilities, and even then, its not as seamless.

[piyushsingh]

maybe coz it keeps the doctor away.

[quackadilly]

I wouldn't say I'm passionately against Apple. But I do have a disliking for Apple. I also have a general disliking for PC manufacturers. (HP, Dell . . . ) I'm 100% for custom machines, they're cheaper and faster . . . an better built as long as I put them together



For me it's their advertising, user base and the cost.


The advertising is as close as you can get to lying. Apple computers are not immune to everything, it's just that they aren't the target. Sure everything "just works" . . . but so does everything on my 5 PCs with Windows on them. Surprisingly, everything "just works" on my Ubuntu laptop as well.


The Apple-fanatics are just insane. Most of the Apple users I've ever come in contact with have no clue about Macs. They bought theirs because they heard they were better. But in the end, they payed 30% more to do the same exact thing . . . with an Apple. The ones that actually have a specific reason they bought a Mac are different. That, I can live with.


The price you pay for what you can actually do with an Apple, to me, is outrageous. There is no "killer app" that makes an Apple irresistible. Think about it this way,

http://img191.images...1/9037/apcf.png

The gray section is what Apples and PCs have in common. The green area is what Apples can do that PCs can't. The yellow and blue areas are what PCs can do that Apples can't, the blue are is gaming.

But how much of the green and yellow areas are useful? Maybe 10% ? 30% ? I can guarantee you it's not 100%.

This post has been edited by quackadilly: 09 March 2010 - 05:43 AM

[nonseq]

Car54, on 04 March 2010 - 09:45 AM, said:

lol, talk about the Kool-Aid metphors...Jonestown, lol, next you'll bring in Marshall Applewhite.

Jonestown IS the Kool-Aid metaphor.

[asiafish]

quackadilly, on 09 March 2010 - 05:42 AM, said:

I wouldn't say I'm passionately against Apple. But I do have a disliking for Apple. I also have a general disliking for PC manufacturers. (HP, Dell . . . ) I'm 100% for custom machines, they're cheaper and faster . . . an better built as long as I put them together



For me it's their advertising, user base and the cost.


The advertising is as close as you can get to lying. Apple computers are not immune to everything, it's just that they aren't the target. Sure everything "just works" . . . but so does everything on my 5 PCs with Windows on them. Surprisingly, everything "just works" on my Ubuntu laptop as well.


The Apple-fanatics are just insane. Most of the Apple users I've ever come in contact with have no clue about Macs. They bought theirs because they heard they were better. But in the end, they payed 30% more to do the same exact thing . . . with an Apple. The ones that actually have a specific reason they bought a Mac are different. That, I can live with.


The price you pay for what you can actually do with an Apple, to me, is outrageous. There is no "killer app" that makes an Apple irresistible. Think about it this way,

http://img191.images...1/9037/apcf.png

The gray section is what Apples and PCs have in common. The green area is what Apples can do that PCs can't. The yellow and blue areas are what PCs can do that Apples can't, the blue are is gaming.

But how much of the green and yellow areas are useful? Maybe 10% ? 30% ? I can guarantee you it's not 100%.

I disagree on may levels. Custom-built is only cheaper if you buy cheap components. What was that thread recently about an $800 case? You can easily spend just as much or more on custom built, depending on what you want.

As for better, well, I'm a laptop guy, and any build-it-yourself laptop will probably be clunky and generic. You cannot build a very slick laptop yourself. You can't buy a laptop casing that is under an inch thick, or that has a magnesium rollcage. You can't buy a ThinkPad-like keyboard. Apple, Lenovo, Panasonic and others make some very nice laptops that no do-it-yourself model can touch for build-quality, appearance, feel, etc. Price and specs (processor, gpu, etc) are only one part of the equation, and often not the most important parts.

Even with desktops there are premium products out there that are much nicer than homebrew. The new iMac is about the best-looking all-in-one on the market, and its display is simply gorgeous (IPS and color correct). For a more conventional desktop I really like Shuttle. They do have barebones kits, but they are hardly build yourself as the motherboard is proprietary for their small case. The build-quality is fantastic and they are small, quiet and depending on the model, extremely fast.

For the big high-end workstations that are running scientific apps or for servers, well once you get to that point, saving a few hundred dollars is a very small benefit compared to giving up single-source support. If my Dell server has any trouble, I call Dell and get an English-speaking American from their enterprise support team. It doesn't matter if its the Intel CPU, the Seagate hard drive or the Microsoft OS that I am having trouble with, I call Dell, and if the call does need to be sent to Microsoft or Intel, Dell transfers and pays for it. Homebrew? Well, you get to take care of all of that yourself. Fine if you have a big IT department, sucks if you don't. Even with the big department, some problems are hard to track. Bad RAM module has certain symptoms that can be the same as a corrupt drive, a bad CPU or any number of software issues. Homebrew you get to spend a lot of time with trial and error to figure it out. I call Dell, they come and replace parts until it works again. When that coverage runs out in 3 years, I can extend it for 2 more, or decide that I want a new server.

I looked into building my own server this time, and I would have saved $400 buying all top-end parts and building it myself. Of course, I had a nice two-hour support session with Dell to migrate everything from SBS 2003 to SBS 2008 and make the design (topography) changes to my network that SBS 2008 necessitated. That call to Microsoft's server support on a homebrew system would have cost $400 or more.

As for killer app, I again must disagree. Windows, for me, has a killer app in offline sync. Apple has a killer app in instant and reliable sleep. I can duplicate the Windows feature on my Mac (not as slick) with a 3rd party application (Chronosync), but I cannot duplicate the Mac feature on Windows. That is why my courtroom computer is a Mac, because it does have a killer app.

As far as paying more for the same thing, again you are dwelling on price and GHz only. How much is lighter weight worth to you? How much is a slimmer case worth to you? How much is longer battery life worth to you?

To most computer shoppers, the MacBook Air is slow, expensive and limited. To me, it and its closest competitor Lenovo's X301 are raging bargains as super-slim, full featured computers with no ergonomic compromises to get their light weight and slim form factors. The Lenovo has an optical drive, and is a better choice if you want or need one. I haven't hooked the optical drive to my Air more than twice in the 16 months I've had it, so for me, the Air's better screen and faster CPU/graphics win out.

Does it matter that the Air has only one USB port and no expandability to speak of? It matters a great deal to those who care about such things, and not at all to those who don't. I know that if I had to live with only one computer for the next three years, I would pick the MacBook Air.

[quackadilly]

asiafish, on 09 March 2010 - 07:23 AM, said:

I disagree on may levels. Custom-built is only cheaper if you buy cheap components. What was that thread recently about an $800 case? You can easily spend just as much or more on custom built, depending on what you want.

As for better, well, I'm a laptop guy, and any build-it-yourself laptop will probably be clunky and generic. You cannot build a very slick laptop yourself. You can't buy a laptop casing that is under an inch thick, or that has a magnesium rollcage. You can't buy a ThinkPad-like keyboard. Apple, Lenovo, Panasonic and others make some very nice laptops that no do-it-yourself model can touch for build-quality, appearance, feel, etc. Price and specs (processor, gpu, etc) are only one part of the equation, and often not the most important parts.

Even with desktops there are premium products out there that are much nicer than homebrew. The new iMac is about the best-looking all-in-one on the market, and its display is simply gorgeous (IPS and color correct). For a more conventional desktop I really like Shuttle. They do have barebones kits, but they are hardly build yourself as the motherboard is proprietary for their small case. The build-quality is fantastic and they are small, quiet and depending on the model, extremely fast.

For the big high-end workstations that are running scientific apps or for servers, well once you get to that point, saving a few hundred dollars is a very small benefit compared to giving up single-source support. If my Dell server has any trouble, I call Dell and get an English-speaking American from their enterprise support team. It doesn't matter if its the Intel CPU, the Seagate hard drive or the Microsoft OS that I am having trouble with, I call Dell, and if the call does need to be sent to Microsoft or Intel, Dell transfers and pays for it. Homebrew? Well, you get to take care of all of that yourself. Fine if you have a big IT department, sucks if you don't. Even with the big department, some problems are hard to track. Bad RAM module has certain symptoms that can be the same as a corrupt drive, a bad CPU or any number of software issues. Homebrew you get to spend a lot of time with trial and error to figure it out. I call Dell, they come and replace parts until it works again. When that coverage runs out in 3 years, I can extend it for 2 more, or decide that I want a new server.

I looked into building my own server this time, and I would have saved $400 buying all top-end parts and building it myself. Of course, I had a nice two-hour support session with Dell to migrate everything from SBS 2003 to SBS 2008 and make the design (topography) changes to my network that SBS 2008 necessitated. That call to Microsoft's server support on a homebrew system would have cost $400 or more.

As for killer app, I again must disagree. Windows, for me, has a killer app in offline sync. Apple has a killer app in instant and reliable sleep. I can duplicate the Windows feature on my Mac (not as slick) with a 3rd party application (Chronosync), but I cannot duplicate the Mac feature on Windows. That is why my courtroom computer is a Mac, because it does have a killer app.

As far as paying more for the same thing, again you are dwelling on price and GHz only. How much is lighter weight worth to you? How much is a slimmer case worth to you? How much is longer battery life worth to you?

To most computer shoppers, the MacBook Air is slow, expensive and limited. To me, it and its closest competitor Lenovo's X301 are raging bargains as super-slim, full featured computers with no ergonomic compromises to get their light weight and slim form factors. The Lenovo has an optical drive, and is a better choice if you want or need one. I haven't hooked the optical drive to my Air more than twice in the 16 months I've had it, so for me, the Air's better screen and faster CPU/graphics win out.

Does it matter that the Air has only one USB port and no expandability to speak of? It matters a great deal to those who care about such things, and not at all to those who don't. I know that if I had to live with only one computer for the next three years, I would pick the MacBook Air.

An $800 case will do no more than a $100 case besides look cool. Building yourself IS cheaper WITH the same hardware, even with better hardware in many cases.

Laptops are different. That's the whole package, you can't easily swap out CPUs, GPUs, PSUs . . .

Sure the iMac is a good looking machine, but it's just like a laptop in terms of customizability.

Big workstations have A TON of money to be saved by building yourself. And as for repairs, when you build enough machines and fix them yourself, you can troubleshoot far faster than any tech support can.

Instant sleep and wake might be a killer app for you, but what about the rest of the world? I'm talking about a REAL killer app that THE MAJORITY of the world wants/needs that the other does not have . . . there is none. Well, maybe gaming . . .

I DID state that I was talking about "what you can do" and not "what it looks like". Desktops and not laptops, so battery life is out. Size? Well it's out of the way so I don't care, just like many many other computer users. But on the battery life topic, I don't care about that too much either. I ALWAYS have my power adapter with me. It's very small so it doesn't take up space, weight is negligible. For me battery life = $0.



I'm talking about functionality. PERIOD. Apple is expensive and Apple fanatics will try to deny it all day long.

[quackadilly]

quackadilly, on 09 March 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

Instant sleep and wake might be a killer app for you, but what about the rest of the world? I'm talking about a REAL killer app that THE MAJORITY of the world wants/needs that the other does not have . . . there is none. Well, maybe gaming . . .

I 'm incorrect with that statement . . .


Flash.


Jobs will have nothing to do with it and the users lose out because of that decision.

This post has been edited by quackadilly: 09 March 2010 - 12:41 PM

[asiafish]

quackadilly, on 09 March 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

asiafish, on 09 March 2010 - 07:23 AM, said:

I disagree on may levels. Custom-built is only cheaper if you buy cheap components. What was that thread recently about an $800 case? You can easily spend just as much or more on custom built, depending on what you want.

As for better, well, I'm a laptop guy, and any build-it-yourself laptop will probably be clunky and generic. You cannot build a very slick laptop yourself. You can't buy a laptop casing that is under an inch thick, or that has a magnesium rollcage. You can't buy a ThinkPad-like keyboard. Apple, Lenovo, Panasonic and others make some very nice laptops that no do-it-yourself model can touch for build-quality, appearance, feel, etc. Price and specs (processor, gpu, etc) are only one part of the equation, and often not the most important parts.

Even with desktops there are premium products out there that are much nicer than homebrew. The new iMac is about the best-looking all-in-one on the market, and its display is simply gorgeous (IPS and color correct). For a more conventional desktop I really like Shuttle. They do have barebones kits, but they are hardly build yourself as the motherboard is proprietary for their small case. The build-quality is fantastic and they are small, quiet and depending on the model, extremely fast.

For the big high-end workstations that are running scientific apps or for servers, well once you get to that point, saving a few hundred dollars is a very small benefit compared to giving up single-source support. If my Dell server has any trouble, I call Dell and get an English-speaking American from their enterprise support team. It doesn't matter if its the Intel CPU, the Seagate hard drive or the Microsoft OS that I am having trouble with, I call Dell, and if the call does need to be sent to Microsoft or Intel, Dell transfers and pays for it. Homebrew? Well, you get to take care of all of that yourself. Fine if you have a big IT department, sucks if you don't. Even with the big department, some problems are hard to track. Bad RAM module has certain symptoms that can be the same as a corrupt drive, a bad CPU or any number of software issues. Homebrew you get to spend a lot of time with trial and error to figure it out. I call Dell, they come and replace parts until it works again. When that coverage runs out in 3 years, I can extend it for 2 more, or decide that I want a new server.

I looked into building my own server this time, and I would have saved $400 buying all top-end parts and building it myself. Of course, I had a nice two-hour support session with Dell to migrate everything from SBS 2003 to SBS 2008 and make the design (topography) changes to my network that SBS 2008 necessitated. That call to Microsoft's server support on a homebrew system would have cost $400 or more.

As for killer app, I again must disagree. Windows, for me, has a killer app in offline sync. Apple has a killer app in instant and reliable sleep. I can duplicate the Windows feature on my Mac (not as slick) with a 3rd party application (Chronosync), but I cannot duplicate the Mac feature on Windows. That is why my courtroom computer is a Mac, because it does have a killer app.

As far as paying more for the same thing, again you are dwelling on price and GHz only. How much is lighter weight worth to you? How much is a slimmer case worth to you? How much is longer battery life worth to you?

To most computer shoppers, the MacBook Air is slow, expensive and limited. To me, it and its closest competitor Lenovo's X301 are raging bargains as super-slim, full featured computers with no ergonomic compromises to get their light weight and slim form factors. The Lenovo has an optical drive, and is a better choice if you want or need one. I haven't hooked the optical drive to my Air more than twice in the 16 months I've had it, so for me, the Air's better screen and faster CPU/graphics win out.

Does it matter that the Air has only one USB port and no expandability to speak of? It matters a great deal to those who care about such things, and not at all to those who don't. I know that if I had to live with only one computer for the next three years, I would pick the MacBook Air.

An $800 case will do no more than a $100 case besides look cool. Building yourself IS cheaper WITH the same hardware, even with better hardware in many cases.

Laptops are different. That's the whole package, you can't easily swap out CPUs, GPUs, PSUs . . .

Sure the iMac is a good looking machine, but it's just like a laptop in terms of customizability.

Big workstations have A TON of money to be saved by building yourself. And as for repairs, when you build enough machines and fix them yourself, you can troubleshoot far faster than any tech support can.

Instant sleep and wake might be a killer app for you, but what about the rest of the world? I'm talking about a REAL killer app that THE MAJORITY of the world wants/needs that the other does not have . . . there is none. Well, maybe gaming . . .

I DID state that I was talking about "what you can do" and not "what it looks like". Desktops and not laptops, so battery life is out. Size? Well it's out of the way so I don't care, just like many many other computer users. But on the battery life topic, I don't care about that too much either. I ALWAYS have my power adapter with me. It's very small so it doesn't take up space, weight is negligible. For me battery life = $0.



I'm talking about functionality. PERIOD. Apple is expensive and Apple fanatics will try to deny it all day long.

Apple isn't expensive, PREMIUM is expensive, and you get what you pay for.

quackadilly, on 09 March 2010 - 12:38 PM, said:

quackadilly, on 09 March 2010 - 08:26 AM, said:

Instant sleep and wake might be a killer app for you, but what about the rest of the world? I'm talking about a REAL killer app that THE MAJORITY of the world wants/needs that the other does not have . . . there is none. Well, maybe gaming . . .

I 'm incorrect with that statement . . .


Flash.


Jobs will have nothing to do with it and the users lose out because of that decision.

Flash works just fine on my Mac, always has.