[foolishfish]

Sticking to that same old strawman?

NOTHING is better in Vista. DX10? Riiiiight.

UAC? Users shouldn't be administrators by default. Period.

Gaming? if you call games running slower with a greater overhead better, you need to get your head out of your a$$

Maybe Windows7 will be better, but Vista is the abortion that should have been.

[dragon69]

YEP like masterguru states we are still waiting for microsoft to fix windows


Yup, we'll wait on them...... and wait.....and wait............and wait.......


Yup, we'll wait on them...... and wait.....and wait............and wait.......


Yup, we'll wait on them...... and wait.....and wait............and wait.......


WELL THEY SHOULD GET IT RIGHT SOON MAYBE BY THE TIME YOUR GREAT GRAND KIDS ARE GAMING LOL


run dual boot and both windoze vista home premium and ubuntu 7.10 were installed right after xmas and they both took about 35 minutes to install but vista needed 4 additional reboots and 4 hours for the windows updates on shaw high speed cable internet and this last week is finally when the sound drivers were upgraded to new vista drivers and almost sound as good as the ubuntu did the day after xmas


many of the drivers have ( mostly ) been fixed in vista why could microsoft not get it right like ubuntu right out of the box? ( yes i did have to install the restricted drivers for video play back but that took all of 2 or 3 minutes but all my old and new hardware worked right the first time but the scanner on my epson cx6000)


remember ubuntu cost me only 23 ( for a blank cd to burn it on) and about 1 hour to down load it were as microsoft cost me 143 plus tax for the dvd and almost 5 hours to install it well 35 minutes plus 4 hours plus time in between reboots )


weekly security scanning( 2 anti spy ware programs and a anti virus program) consumes about 3 hours per week on windoze and on ubuntu nil is not .. TIME EQUALS MONEY?

my point is maybe microsoft should be paying us as beta tester rather then charging us money to buy there c r a p

gl and tc e1


chuck

[pc101]

I've got to agree w/everything Evildave has said. It's almost as if he's gone thru the same exact motions I have. I used to build the gaming machines and dump more and more $ into them upgrading, then ditching the entire rig for a new one every 2 years anyway.....

And meanwhile, every time a new game you buy doesn't work, you're then the human ping pong ball between the game developers support team, the OS support team, the video card's support team, the sound card support team, etc etc - all of which never admit it is their fault and blame the other. It's not the game, it's your video drivers. It's not our video drivers, update your OS. It's not the OS, it's your sound drivers. Your sound drivers are up to date, it's the game. Round and round you go.

Wasn't worth the aggravation. Especially when you're paying a lot of $ to be aggravated.

So after always saying the PC was better than the console, I converted to the console. I know every game that comes out, has gone thru verification, and will work. The game developer knew exactly what hardware they were creating a game to run on. Everyone's specs are the same. And now with the ability to receive patches and expansion packs on the console, which was the one thing PC always had over console, there is no debate at all. Console = no aggravation. Aside from the red rings. But that's another story for another day.

[cryptodan]

At least I know with a PC that I can swap out parts to get better graphics and game play. Sticking with limited hardware in coding limits creativity and progression of technology. The consoles today are using graphics hardware that was good 2 to 3 years ago. Where as I can drop 200 bucks on a 9600GT and have great gaming experience.
I know I can play my games at max everything and run them smooth due to having 640Megs of video RAM which is more then a PS3 and XBbox360's.

[MarioJP]

wow this war still going geez lol. I was busy playing these awsome titles on my pc. AC now available on steam and soon mass effect coming to the pc. And just now i just bought command & conquer kane's wrath expansion for the PC. Anything to avoid the console version for these games.
Especially bioshock It runs very fluid on Max settings at res 1600x1200. You guys say how games don't run well because of windows where in reality i am seeing the exact opposite. Kill this thread already geeze
and also Keep the games coming and just so you know i have 93.6GB worth of games that are currently installed on my pc. I have a 1.5TB hard drive (2x 750GB samsung drive in raid0 under "Windows") Can your ps3 do raid0?? NO IT CANT hehe
in any case Windows is far from broken =)
and while i am on the subject the PS3 despite able to install "other os" does not grant you full access to the ps3 hardware. At least on the PC you have "Total access" And i am not very impressed with OpenGL. DirectX is more than just a API.
And case some of you don't know what API means it stands for "Application Programmable interface" Its what links up software to talk to the hardware.
Furthermore more what i don't get is why use wine which is almost close to the real thing since its not emulation but still. It is not where windows is at. Maybe i could see for the apps but not for newer games. why?? because the Directx API keeps being updated up the ass.
Faster than i can keep up so to maximize and that newer games are met for the new functions that these games requires. I had a game that it would not let me install until i have updated my DX9 to feb 08 update.
I mean if you want to game on the pc but avoid windows because its "windows and MS". Well tough luck on that one. and also because certain games don't work quite well under Linux.
you get mad at us pc gamers because we are not "gaming on consoles" like we should and telling us we are wasting our money???. Cmon now that is the most flawed statement i have ever heard. I dunno what i sense but sounds like theres jealousy going on.
The fact of the matter is that all of my games just works very well under windows. Even if its own by a big corporate like MS. And atleast my PC hasn't give me a red ring of death or a blue screen of death for that matter. In fact i have never got a BSOD ever since i installed windows.
Now newer games comes with updated DX. The first thing it updates before the game install is the DX API. With that said, if you think directx is one static api that never changes well guess what?? dead wrong!.It is in fact very dynamic. These so called mini dx updates help ensure game maximum performance and to work with newer video drivers much better.
So in the end newer games are getting harder to work with wine.
This is going to turn into a cat & mouse game. DX is the mouse OpenGL is the cat. Close but no dice lol

[Evildave]

You don't need access to the 'full hardware' to run Linux and get work done. If you want to play, stuff a PS3 disk in the drive. That WILL have 'full hardware' access.

I mean, sure, next to your $250 PS3, you could set up your $2,500 'gaming' PC and do the same word processing, spreadsheets, web browsing, etc. The PC just won't do any of that any better than the PS3 with 'one hand tied behind its back'. It's quite thoughtful that not only is it a gaming console, video download service, and Blu Ray/DVD player, but it can be used for general purpose computing.

...

Now as far as this so-called 'lack of creativity', with the 'stifling' sameness of a two or three year old console, it's quite the opposite. People make games that would otherwise require a new PC gaming rig run nice and smoothly on the conosles that have been around for quite a while, and at HDTV resolutions. How? Because they gain experience. They learn how to do more with less. Believe me, it's a lot of creative work to crush a game that needs a gig of system RAM and a swap file into 256 megs. The guy at Valve should be given a frickin' medal for their port of Halflife 2 to the XBOX with 64MB of RAM..

When you use the same rendering pipeline for several years, .it takes quite a lot of creativity to make it pump out the same experience as a brand spanking new gaming PC rig that will be 'stale' and need the price of yet another whole console thrown into it to get a chunky refresh from new games a year from now, assuming it runs them at all. Not to mention having the console game load more or less 'instantly' compared to a PC game's lengthy installation.

[MarioJP]

2,500 LOL I just leave it at that. Half life 2 had to be crippled quality had to be reduced and there was some lag here and there it just was not the same i am sorry but i beg to differ on that. And thats what made me buy the PC version i couldn't be any happier. plus the modding that goes with it. Sorry nice try. Just because you can cram more for less is not always better. Poor devs must be struggling with ungodly optimization. And don't even get me started with the PS3. Sony has lost credibility with the ps2 and yet still doing the dam same thing with the ps3. No thanks bye bye Sony. All i can say is my money is well spent =)
Its all about "Windows and games not Linux and games" lol. And to your other question about "lenghty installations" I have never suffered from Lenghthy installations. The only thing i suffered was gaming on a console. I grew up on consoles and became a PCgamer. And also subscribed to PCgamer magazine and joined "PC gamer forums"

[cryptodan]

Have you even visited the Console section at the official VALVe Forums? http://forums.steamp...orums/index.php and look at all the issues people are having? If not I suggest you go check it out. The games in the Orange Box have multiple issues compared to that with Consoles due to the fact they are ported versions of the game. The games were developed on PC's for PC Gaming in mind not for consoles. I can run any game on my PC with no lag and at 2048x1536 with nearly high settings. I would love to see a limited console run at that resolution and keep up with it.

[samikey]

Gartner has taken a lot of grief over their Windows statement. Just this morning in and article on the Google Tech page, Steve Ballmer is quoted as saying that VISTA is a 'work in progress'. VISTA was merely put out for public consumption before it was ready. It has not been well received and is now scurrying to get Windows 7 out in 2009 before the company loses any more market share. Microsoft is innovative only when challenged.
Let me digress. When Netscape was on the scene and challenging MS, MS turned out IE updates regularly to get/keep it's foot in the browser door. For every Netscape update, MS followed. After the Netscape demise, how often did MS even bother with IE?
Would IE7 even be around if not for Firefox and Opera?
Albeit avery small percentage, some have turned to other sources for software besides MS. Windows 7 is going to have to be everything that VISTA wasn't.

[cryptodan]

I totally agree look at Windows ME, after that came a beautiful operating system we all know as Windows XP. I am sure MS does this to test reactions to new operating systems, and see how well the public receives it. I was forced to get Windows XP the day of, because I worked at an ISP. I needed to get familiar with it to help people out over the phone and to test various things out. I got it the day before it was released, and i Have been happy with it ever since.

I used to own every console out there then decided to sell them and all the games, as i was sick and tired of having to buy a new console to get newer games, so instead I just pumped that 250 per console into my computers to get newer games and guess what every computer game I got only required minimal tweaking and configuring of my computer to play. I can even play Doom on my computer due to DoBox. Can you play old legacy games like Wolfenstien 3d on a console? I think not.

[dragon69]

samikey how can we take you seriously as you do not have your facts right

check this out ! !!! ! !!

http://browser.netscape.com/



if you want people to take you seriously and even continue to listen to you ..... you need to get your facts straight in my humble opinion



gl and tc e1

chuck

btw firefox is the basee on the code from the so called demised netscape

[cryptodan]

Netscape 9 is the last version of Netscape to be released, and all support and future upgrades will not be considered. AOL has considered the browser to be dead as AOL still uses IE.

[samikey]

How many upgrades did we have to IE once Netscape quit issuing updates following 7.2? Netscape was purchased by AOL which virtually let it die. Just look at the browser percentage of Firefox. It has made inroads into the market once dominated by IE. Why all of a sudden was IE7 issued, remember it was a critical update, and now the beta of 8 is being tested? Many people downloaded IE7 without being aware of it. It was roughly 6 years between IE6 and IE7. Why so long? Could it have been that Microsoft felt no compelling need?



Again, in Ballmer's own words, VISTA is a work in progress. From 2001 to 2007 VISTA was being developed and it is still a work in progress? Why would anyone want to buy a work in progress with the Windows 7 on the horizon. Is the term 'work in progress' another way of saying that VISTA is not what we wanted it to be?


{font:'Lucida Grande'}{size:12px}http://www.pcworld.c.../144773/ballmervistaisaworkinprogress.html{size}{font}

[MarioJP]

and i also have to agree with you Microsoft does need competion. I mean if it was not for firefox IE8 would not be in development. Its just how the market goes. Comcast is starting to get there but thats another day and another thread lol.

So theres good and bad about MS. Games for windows was a + people did not know that there were gaming on the PC. I went to bestbuy the other day and i see a brand new shelf that extends across from ile to ile surpassing the consoles game section and with a "Games for windows branding" It was well organized and there was a pc up and running with game demos.

With that said. The disapointment about vista was that MS said that Vista was going to be treated like if a new console was launching. And DX10 (which is finally starting to pickup now thanks to assasin creed utilizing dx 10.1 and shows 25-35 percent performance) but the launch never happened. Windows Live was a big dissapointment for games for windows. But the upside is that Steam is picking up the pieces where MS left them. So i say since steam is becoming popular and with 15M users account and rising. I would be more than happy to let steam to replace "windows live" because steam is a success. no installations, no patching as it comes updated, and best of all NO MORE CD'S/DVD'S or optical media discs bah. just your account a high speed connection and download and play =)

The Good= Games for windows branding for PC gaming
The Bad= Windows live. Either fix it oh don't bother

I think the problem with MS is of lack of management. They are too large to sustain. Since MS has all the money in the world they should divide into sections. Like one for xboxlive one for windows and one and what makes pc gaming possible "Games for windows" I just like browsing online for pc games knowing that there are TONS to choose from.

[Evildave]

cryptodan said:

I can even play Doom on my computer due to DoBox. Can you play old legacy games like Wolfenstien 3d on a console? I think not.

Doom is available on XBOX live, and you could have used WinDOOM to run it, as well. It was long ago ported to EVERY OS. Same with pretty much all of the old ID Software stuff. DOOM was originally developed on a NeXT machine (Unix).

Wolfenstein 3D is even playable as a FLASH 8 application. Sort of a half-assed port, but what the heck. Theoretically you could use the Nintendo Wii's browser to go play it. Flash 9 could easily run Doom (and the rest of that generation of ray casters), but nobody's gotten around to it.

One can also run MAME under Linux to play literally thousands of arcade games. DOS emulators (down to the x86 CPU emulation) are available for Linux, so theoretically quite a large selection of old games could run on a PS3. Doom would just be a recompile of one of the X server compatible ports. The PS3 runs MAME under Linux without the need for the extra features of the GPU that are locked down.

PCs running Windows aren't magical. There's nothing a Windows PC can do that can't be done on other platforms.

Moore's law marches on. In a few years' time, all the hardest core hardware-intensive games of today will run in pure software emulation on a cheap computer inside of an interpreted web environment, like quite a few arcade games have already been ported.

Even more important, if you're willing to simply wait six months to a year for your gratification, most games end up in the bargain bin. Sure, you could have slaughtered that army of 'Mr. Bubbles' right away, but if you simply wait a little while, you can slaughter that same army for half-price, and in the case of the PC, maybe all the patches will have been released to make it run right by then.

[MarioJP]

Lets not forget that doom is one of those rare games that actually has support for multi os platform windows and linux Same thing with quake wars

[bazbaker]

Dear Cryptodan,


What is synaptic package manager???








Edited by MPHEnterprises - No Personal Attacks

[cryptodan]

Yes I have heard of Synaptic a front end gui based application for apt-get, and are you also familiar with how ALSA Drivers seem to break sound card support? I hardly ever updated my sound card driver as with with every other update my card would just vanish. It was a EMU10k1 based sound card which is "supposed" to be supported, but then again why is it that every other driver completely failed to see it? Uhmmmmmm, ask yourself that. I have probably been more familiar with Linux/Unix longer then you have been alive.

[dragon69]

yes cyptodan you are right the vista sound drivers do suck ( well up until last week when realteck finally released drivers that make it sound almost as good as ubuntu did on dec 27) !!!!!

i installed vista home premium on dec 27 or 28 of 2007 and it took only 35 minutes to install but almost 4 hours ( on high speed cable modem) of updates and 4 more reboots ( plus the reboot even before the updates began right after the install was done) and during the second hour of updates i hooked up my old win xp machine and started to download ubuntu 7.10 and it took a little over 1 and a half hours to down load and 7 minutes or so to burn it to a cd ( cost 23 cents)

with vista i have had a nightmare trying to find all the right ones but ubuntu was ready to go ( except the restricted drivers which took 2 or 3 minutes to install and the scanner does not work on my epson cx6000 (also bought just before the xmas holidays) )

but now i am happy to tell you that the sound is almost as good in windoze as it is in ubuntu

i think some of the drivers that are on my windoze system are not certified ( maybe some companies do not want to pay microsoft twice to get their drivers certified ? ? )

price comparision vista home premium 143 bucks for the oem dvd ubuntu 23 ( and a little down load time or bandwidth) for the blank cd

performance vista crawls a long but ubuntu flies

games i only play online poker so ubuntu their is only about 5 poker sites that run on linux and windoze a million but i only play on two sites

security no weekly time consuming scans to run on ubuntu but on vista i run anti virus ( was avg free but right now i am trying out avast and it takes longer for the scans so i might go back to avg free) and three anti spyware programs and a firewall ( comodo pro on vista and yes ubuntu has a firewall to but it takes next to no resources to run) ( yes my router has a hardware firewall but shaw cable has that locked up and i get no reports from it )a reg cleaner and a seperate disk cleaner ( wise disk cleaner and it get 2 or 3 times the amout of stuff that windoze disk cleaner does and yes it is free too) and auslogics defrager as it is way faster and get more files then windoze does

so my question is why does a operating system that cost 143 bucks not work and why does a free ( well almost free) operating system work so good ? ? ? ?

and or why is microsoft not paying us as beta tester for there new operating system ? ? ? ( as we are helping them fix there mistakes )


btw i know it is easy to get the scanner running in buntu but i have not tried to yet as i have only needed the scanner twice in the last 4 months ( just easier to boot into windoze and get er done lol ok i am too lazy lol )

good luck everyone and take care



chuck

[imajeff]

"MasterGuru":

Quote

I guess CIO's these days are just business grads with little real world
knowledge. That's a shame.I noticed this is true about all the CEO's who think to rely on Microsoft's "vast knowledge" so they don't have to learn anything for themselves. Just forget to press the "spell&grammar check" button, and oops, everyone knows how dumb they really are.

"MasterGuru", I for one would love to hear you explain what a "CIO" is in your context <ROFL>

Still, I've been programming in both MS and Linux for a few years and I realize the differnce. When I was a Microsoft junkie I used incorrect English because I was naive and also didn't think of pressing the button.

Now when I'm primarily in GNU/Linux, I misspell and use lazy grammar because I think getting the point across is more important.

-----

Quote

After ten years we're still waiting for Open Source to be anything

Where have I heard that phrase so many times except the word "Microsoft" was in place of "Open Source". It is past 10 years now, and all I see is a rush of fools repeatedly upgrading in hopes that maybe the NEXT neat thing will work. Why would MS ever need to "fix" their product if they make millions by creating something that does NOT quite work?

Quote

My games,

Oh, I get it... At first I thought you were some sort of professional or educated person. You mean your games that were made for Microsoft. Is that really what this is all about? Why not just get a dedicated game machine (PlayStation, Wii, even Xbox), which whould not rely on Windows or Linux? You wouldn't have to come here and make a fool of yourself. Still... Great games work in Linux as long as they can "turn off the OS", which is basically what they do with Windows. It allowes to allocate raw resources for more intense multimedia.


Get the hint as did MarioJP... Microsoft is finally losing the battle with PR. They don't quite got the unbelievably biased opinions anymore from PCWorld and other seemingly practical magazines. I suggest stop ignoring reality and you have a chance to overcome what appears a mental illness.

Ultimately, if something like openSUSE (preferrably Gentoo) appeared to be the most popular instead of "Windows", then each company would build their software and hardware drivers for that instead. Then many problems would be solved, games and business alike would improve in a ways you apparently don't comprehend, and I for one would be very happy.

I'm only reading the first page of the posts because it is already going in circles, but I just wanted to add my comments.

-----

Also about having a standard package system for all distros to manage applications in the same way. It has already been done! Several times ;)


But seriously... Each of those ported management systems can easily be chosen by a Company, and used as the standard management system. Why on Earth would any Company say, "OK employees, go and install any Linux distro that you please, and any other different non-compatible applications". Obviously they would do the same thing they do now, but with a Linux distribution instead of choice of MS Windows. You don't see many companies authorizing their employees to install any release of MS Windows on their system, and all the games or misc Apps they can find to go with it!


The important difference then is that with Linux I have been able to easily enforce the policy, and without paying a penny more to anyone like Microsoft or third-party vendors! Once I get a reference PC setup with desired GNU/Linux configuration, I can easily clone the PC and have no License fees to worry about. It's been wonderful until I am reminded that the CEO is too scared to do it yet for the entire Company.


Well, Back to work... My full time job for a while will be trying to get the poor Win XP users computers working again. I would say it's strange that they keep failing when no changes were authorized to those workstations, but hey... it's Microsoft.


My SUSE sytem has been working for 7 years and has only changed when I tell it to. No complaints there except that Microsoft changes continuously, so I have trouble keeping shares between GNU and Microsoft systems. The obvious solution there is that they stop using Microsoft. Get a CLUE guys!