[spoz]

It's laughable how quickly sensible discussion degenerates into
berating and name-calling once a party goes to the defensive. How
conveniently aahmed753 forgets about the rule of law in America.

As Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. put it, "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." Nobody has to defend the premise of somebody's argument; the issue is to defend the right to argue. That right comes with a RESPONSIBILITY, and, if irresponsibly executed, comes with consequences. Ever heard of libel?

I'd rather have to hear from misinformed religious bigots spouting off on topics about which they are clearly ignorant than to fear some version of the Mind Police swooping down on me should I - God forbid! - express a view that the Muslims don't like.

Freedom is not cheap. It comes with a price. And it must be defended.

Political correctness and cow-towing to every radical group on the planet will not help us defend our freedoms.

[aahmed753]

lol, Spoz, weren't you the one who has been posting those funny and crappiest comments that sounded like a 4 years old's writing? And now you are quoting Oliver Wendell and trying to make yourself look like educated? Why don't you educate yourself little bit about actual Islam and it's teaching so that you can fit yourself when you say something about that religion?

You act like as if Christianity is the one who brought freedom of speech. In christianity women were treated as a thing and property until only some centuries ago (http://www.religioustolerance.org/lfe_bibl.htm) and used to think that white are from God and black people are Devil!

Ignorant like you, who has no idea about the world except what is shown in the media, is what is causing the problem we are facing today.

[spoz]

Like I said, it's laughable how quickly sensible discussion degenerates into
berating and name-calling once a party goes to the defensive. QED.

[dfizzo]

http://www.gamepolit...g-planet-recall
Apparently there is one guy who definitely has the right attitude.
He basically says "We, as Muslims, can't yell about our free speech rights being violated while also saying 'but if something you say offends if you shouldn't be allowed to say it.'"

[greybigtop]

"Then actually you should stand with him to protect his right to say whatever ridiculous he has to say to express his view and opinion."

Naturally sweetheart, and I would gladly and proudly do so.

But it´s symptomatic, that you prove beyond any shadow of doubt, that you have absolutely no clue as to what democracy and freedom of speech means.

And instead of running around being chronically offended, muslims ought to concentrate on bringing their nations into the 21 century and fix some of the numerous serious problems that plaque their backward underdeveloped nations.

But of course they can´t do that without radically breaking with their stone age superstition Islam!



PS:



It funny you use the word ridicolous, because what could be more ridicolous than an adult believing in trolls and socalled "gods"

[chipbennett]

rsultan said:

Coming from someone who is both a Software Engineer and a Muslim I think it's important to calrify the difference between censorship and respect. Censorship is manufactured through fear and ignorance, while respect is grown from a culture of mutual understanding. Sony's action's are not that of censorsihp, but of respect. Since when did censorship trump mutual respect? This is not an issue of religion as I would expect the same action from Sony if any form of inappropriate material made its way into any of their games.

First, let me say that the issue is not censorship, or of the abridgement of the freedom of speech, since the issue does not involve an act of Congress.

That said, I must address the second matter: that of respect.

Mutual respect can only exist between civilized parties who understand the meaning of and difference between implication and inference.

Too many - let's assume they are the extremist - Muslims infer far too much offense where none is implied. These same people impose far too much of their sensibilities and cultural offenses on non-Muslims. These same people assume that "mutual respect" confers upon them the right not to be offended. These same people believe that they have the right to impose upon non-Muslims their own standard of impropriety.

The problem with this stance is that, in a free society, no such freedom or right not to be offended exists. In fact, it cannot, because freedom of speech and freedom of expression are foundational to a free society.

The proper course of action for Muslims offended by the existence of a soundtrack song containing Qaran quotes in a video game is not not demand - or even to request - that the song be removed, but rather simply not to buy or play the video game.

For the record, I am Christian, and I hold my fellow Christians to the same standard regarding tolerance when the freedoms of speech and expression of others are expressed in ways that are offensive to Christians.

[chipbennett]

rsultan said:

Spoz begins his comment by indicating that he has certain knowledge that Sony pulled their game because the world is being held hostage to Muslim extremism. Sony has in fact indicated that they believed the content was used inappropriately in the soundtrack of their video game.

That argument - that Sony believed the content was used inappropriately - is a canard at best. There is no sound argument against the reality that Sony's actions represent appeasement of those who complained that the content was offensive to Muslims.

Quote

Spoz then delves into the world of generalizations, using the example of Catholicism as the anti-example to violence by Muslim extremism. Suffice it to say that Christian history has shown us period of violence, such as the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, KKK, and IRA for starters. A more recent example can be taken from the Iraq war in which president George Bush’s administration with the backing of congress (which many profess to be devout Christians) invaded Iraq under false pretences which has resulted in an entire nation left in ruins. However, we cannot make the generalization that these periods of violence were a result of the inherent teachings of Jesus Christ, which is quite the opposite. The truth is extremism occurs in all groups whether they are secular or religious due to ignorance and a life of close-mindedness characterized by the very generalizations that spoz mentions.

I'm sure this line of discussion is about to get flagged for being off-topic; nevertheless, I have two counter-arguments:

1) Even perfect, pure faith is mis-handled when run by man. We are human, and by nature imperfect, which is the very reason we need a Savior, and forgiveness for the sins we have committed - even sins committed in the name of religion.

2) The Crusades were an attempt to push back the Muslims, who instigated a war of conquest, taking over large swaths of land by force, murdering and pillaging as they went. The violence of the Crusades was started by Muslims.

The KKK are not and were not Christian. They may claim to have been, but Christians disavow both the group and its philosophies.

The United States did not leave Iraq in ruins. Iraq is more prosperous now than it has been in 30 years, and left tens of millions of Iraqi citizens - (mostly) Muslim men, women, and children free to build a free, democratic society. It is (once again) Muslim terrorists who have continued to kill innocent civilians and attempt to leave Iraq in ruins and to thwart the Iraqi's process of building that free society.

I agree that extremism exists in all philosophies. The primary difference between Christianity and Islam is that mainstream Christians denounce their extremists - forthrightly, immediately, and without hesitation.

Quote

The following words are engraved in the Statute of Liberty, "Giveus your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..." There is a willingness for Western Nations to accept immigrants and a willingness for immigrants to migrate to those Nations. Welcoming people “to join us, but ON OUR TERMS” is not integration, but rather assimilation. Integration is achieved by fostering a culture of understanding and mutual respect. Spoz the very constitution that protects your rights is the same constitutions which an American Muslim Capt. Humayun Khan died for in Iraq.

Why, yes: those who choose to immigrate to the United States and become part of our nation and society do so on our terms. Becoming an American is not a right, but a privilege. We welcome all - but all must respect the freedoms of all.

Quote

Extremists are not born; they are manufactured via internal and external influences.

Agreed - and one of the best ways to avoid manufacturing such extremism is to teach one's fellows how to live in a society without finding offense at every turn.

[HarveyDanger]

Lmao.

Karma attack!

[zed123]

removed

You are a practicing Christian, correct? Despite prejudice you face you are peaceful because that is what your religion preaches. But what about all the Christian terrorism that has taken place in the past? Did they not just manipulate people using religion to follow their own selfish needs? Islam preaches the same thing, but people are manipulating the teachings for their benefit.

To begin with most of the Muslims in the middle east are not very well educated and do not have the opportunity(e.g. in Saudi Arabia nationals are by law not allowed to study foreign schools, only the rich Arabs find a way around this). I do not believe this is censorship I believe this is to show respect, the same way if there was any reference to perhaps the bible which was large enough to upset the Christian community it may have been boycotted by some. I believe Sony is just afraid of bad press, and profits. Not violence because this in a minor issue and if part of Asia boycotts it, it will be a huge loss of business. You are thinking from the US's point of view, the US in not the only market in the world (even though many Americans seem to forget the world). So this change is not targeted here, but for the middle east.

Please, channel your energy towards the people that taking advantage of people in the middle east, not the general Muslim population. With regards to free speech, there is a clear line to be drawn between free speech and pure racism or insult.



Edited by MPHEnterprises - No Personal Attacks

[chipbennett]

aahmed753 said:

You act like as if Christianity is the one who brought freedom of speech. In christianity women were treated as a thing and property until only some centuries ago (http://www.religioustolerance.org/lfe_bibl.htm) and used to think that white are from God and black people are Devil!

As a matter of fact, Christianity did bring freedom of speech.

Christianity has never taught that women (or black people) were to be "treated as a thing and property". In fact, Jesus Christ instituted the radical concept of gender equality with respect to value/worth in the sight of God and society. It is Christianity that teaches "there is no male nor female, slave nor free, Greek nor Jew, for we are all one in Christ Jesus." It is Christianity that teaches "husbands love your wives even as Christ loved the church and gave up his life for it."

Conversely, it is Islam that treats women as the lesser gender, subjugates the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of wives to the absolute will of the husband, and continues to tolerate (the atrociously ironic, so-called) "honor" killings of women and girls.

It is Christianity that enacted the abolishment of slavery in civilized countries - the Catholic in Spain, the Anglicans in England, and the Protestants in the United States.

Conversely, it is Islam that continues the inhumane practices of human slavery in Africa and elsewhere.

Quote

Ignorant like you, who has no idea about the world except what is shown in the media, is what is causing the problem we are facing today.

Perhaps some introspection is in order.

[mphenterprises]

Okay, before this gets way out of hand, please keep all responses in line with the article and the Discussion title. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and any personal attack posts will be edited or removed. If you have any questions, please feel free to review the {document:id=1000}.

[chipbennett]

aahmed753 said:

Freedom of speech mainly about politics so that people can fight back against mischeif by government or against people in charge. If your definition of freedom of speech is taken, don't get upset if someone comments how ugly and fat your girlfriend is. Then actually you should stand with him to protect his right to say whatever ridiculous he has to say to express his view and opinion. Idiots.

As a matter of fact, freedom of speech does grant one the right to hurl insults at my girlfriend (wife, in my case). And, I would stand with him in his right to say those things, should the government attempt to limit that right.

However, when he uses that freedom to express such childishness, why should I care about the immature insults of such an idiot?

A mature adult knows that the best course of action is just to ignore such idiots.

Their sole purpose in expressing their freedom of speech in such a manner is to incite to anger the target of their insults, or to instigate a confrontation. Why give them the satisfaction of succeeding?

[chipbennett]

mphenterprises said:

Okay, before this gets way out of hand, please keep all responses in line with the article and the Discussion title. Personal attacks will not be tolerated and any personal attack posts will be edited or removed. If you have any questions, please feel free to review the {document:id=1000}.

Saw that one coming a mile away.

Perhaps PC World should consider the subject matter of such articles? There is almost no way for discussion of such an article to take place without a high probability of inappropriate tangents.

[mphenterprises]

Hi Chip. Oh so very true. I personally wonder what are the editors thinking when they choose what gets posted. It sometimes appears that they are looking for riot-like incidents.

[greybigtop]

For the record: both socalled

"christianity" and socalled "islam" is of course both nonsensical silly fairytales for children and childish adults suffering from a total lack of intellectual integrity.

And the christian crusaders were - of course - NOT noble freedomfighters, but merely primitive robbers and thugs out to rape and pillage.

Socalled "Islam" and socalled "christianity" and ALL other socalled "religoins" are merely totallitarian primitive tribal superstitions designed for ultimate crowd control of the mindless herds.

[rsultan]

Just wanted to clarify a couple points and hopefuly stay on topic,

My references to the Crusades was an analogy to the fact that any religion or secular organization/government is not immune to extremists. From my experience debating religion in forums ultimately tends to be fruitless, so let's not travel down this path.

Now back to the real issue at hand. Human beings are not all the same. We similarities and we have differences and to be hoenst who'd want to live in a world where were exact copies of one another. The ability to have differences will ultimately lead to occasions where people will be offended by the actions of another group. Let's remember that freedom of speech does not dicate that others must wholeheartedly accept our ideas or not be allowed to take offense even if they disagree. We absolutely have the freedom to say or do whatever we want, that's another quality of being human. Just don't expect that whatever you say or do may not lead to someone being offended if the boundaries of mutual respect are crossed.

Finally, censorship involves one group forcibly applying or limiting a view upon another group or individual. An example is a communist government censoring negative press on its own policy. In the Sony example, a group who in this case happen to be Muslim alerted Sony of this issue and indicated that it is in fact offensive. Sony, who has the freedom to continue releasing the game with the song in question, decided that it did not want the negatively publicity and thus came decided via free will to delay the release of the game (and by merely 4 days might I add) in order to resolve the problem.

[chipbennett]

rsultan said:

Just wanted to clarify a couple points and hopefuly stay on topic,


My references to the Crusades was an analogy to the fact that any religion or secular organization/government is not immune to extremists. From my experience debating religion in forums ultimately tends to be fruitless, so let's not travel down this path.

It probably goes without needing further supporting evidence that any group of human beings, aligning around whatever cause or philosophy, has its share of extremists. On that point, we certainly agree.

It just doesn't help further your argument to use refutable examples, especially when that particular argument was orthogonal to the topic at hand. Hopefully, we can leave that part of the discussion behind.

Quote

Now back to the real issue at hand. Human beings are not all the same. We similarities and we have differences and to be hoenst who'd want to live in a world where were exact copies of one another. The ability to have differences will ultimately lead to occasions where people will be offended by the actions of another group. Let's remember that freedom of speech does not dicate that others must wholeheartedly accept our ideas or not be allowed to take offense even if they disagree. We absolutely have the freedom to say or do whatever we want, that's another quality of being human. Just don't expect that whatever you say or do may not lead to someone being offended if the boundaries of mutual respect are crossed.

I am grateful that we are all created to be unique. As you say, quality of life would suffer were we not so uniquely created. We also have the unique human capacity to choose our beliefs with regard to principles of truth and matters of right and wrong.

That capacity gives us great power - both for good and for ill. It also guarantees that not all will ever agree about anything.

Another unique human capacity is the ability to act contrary to our instinctive response to stimuli. This capacity gives rise to the development of mutual respect. On one hand, we can choose to constrain our freedoms in order not to offend someone else (in fact, the Bible teaches that this should be how we act toward others). On the other hand, we can choose not to be offended (or, more accurately, we can choose how to respond or not to respond) when someone in the exercise of their freedoms says or does something that offends our sense of decency/morality/etc.

That said, a cohesive, civilized society can only function properly when some universal standards are applied. For instance, some Muslim cultures still allow for the marriage between a grown man and a teen (or younger) girl. For another instance, some quasi-Christian cults still allow polygamy. In both cases, the mores of civilized society require that both practices not take place within that society. These examples represent the first part of the development of mutual respect: self-constraint of one's freedoms for the good of societal mores.

On the other side of the coin, however, those universal societal standards must be applied to the second part of the develpment of mutual respect: choosing not to be offended by that which one would otherwise find offensive. Christians must choose not to be offended when the freedom of expression manifests as "Piss Christ" (or the myriad other, similar examples of "art"), or "The Last Temptation of Christ" movie, or the many other pop-culture examples of denigration and insult toward our faith. Likewise, Muslims must choose not to be offended by the work of a Dutch cartoonist, or of a snippet of Quaran quotes in a song in a video game.

Otherwise, society absolutely could not function properly, because that mutual respect could never be attained. Everyone would find something offensive about everyone else, all the time.

Quote

Finally, censorship involves one group forcibly applying or limiting a view upon another group or individual. An example is a communist government censoring negative press on its own policy. In the Sony example, a group who in this case happen to be Muslim alerted Sony of this issue and indicated that it is in fact offensive. Sony, who has the freedom to continue releasing the game with the song in question, decided that it did not want the negatively publicity and thus came decided via free will to delay the release of the game (and by merely 4 days might I add) in order to resolve the problem.

Which is why I first stated that this discussion really isn't about censorship. No government compelled Sony to make the decision they did. They, as the owner/manufacturer of the game in question, are within their rights to make whatever decision they choose regarding leaving in or removing the soundtrack song in question.

That said, we can still discuss/debate whether or not we think that Sony has made the right decision.

[aahmed753]

removed 11 to 13 year old so called teenagers getting pregnant by thousands every day in your "Christian" and "Western" countries and you question whether or not they are capable of get married. Ask Palin, she will tell you why teenage marriage should not be prohibited.





Edited by MPHEnterprises - No Personal Attacks

[chipbennett]

aahmed753 said:

You are full of . 11 to 13 year old so called teenagers getting pregnant by thousands every day in your "Christian" and "Western" countries and you question whether or not they are capable of get married. Ask Palin, she will tell you why teenage marriage should not be prohibited.

Wow, that's all you took out of my last post?

I think you just proved my points in ways you can't even imagine.

Other than that, I'm not going to continue this tangent.
Edited to remove expletive. Sorry for quoting without redacting.

[aahmed753]

You have only one point, to throw your negative idea about Islam in every way you can. Don't believe me? read all of your earlier comments. I don't mind criticism, but if you are going to criticize something this big without any reference or knowledge, make sure you have the nuts and bolts to handle the truth and the reality.