[SkateNY]

Geez...Fact is, you do need to buy bread, even in places where there are few or no choices. No one NEEDS to buy a music player, even when that someone feels that they do need one. It's the difference between wanting something and needing something in order to survive. It's something more unfortunate that someone needed to spell this out for you.

No wonder your posts are so narrow. You need a teacher. And, even more unfortunate for you, I'm very certain that you cannot afford me.

Good luck.

[crypt2121]

Sorry, thought I 'd dumb it down for you. You are obviously shorter than I thought...You didn't even feel the breeze. Good luck.

[coastie65]

This is to skateny and crypt2121, You guys need to cool your jets. Your posts are bordering on crossing onto personal attacks and that will not be tolerated. coastie65

[crypt2121]

Thanks Coastie, I'm off this thread.

Everyone, enjoy whatever player you got.

[krisculin]

I own a Zune (got it for my birthday in 2007) and I am proud to own the Zune. My wife owns an iPod Nano (4th gen I think). I have to help her out constantly with iTunes because it's so dang difficult to find stuff. The UI is archaic - in other words it needs a MAJOR overhaul. iTunes tells her it needs to update the iPod every single time she connects even though it has the latest firmware installed.

The time clock is also stuck in 24 hr mode and no matter what I try and do it doesn't switch back to 12 hr mode.

Trying to find a song on that thing is a pain in the butt as well - the Zune's interface, both on the device and the desktop software, far outperforms iTunes. it's easier to find songs in your own collection as well to find songs in the Zune store. Kudos to Microsoft.

[Spiderich]

The old Mac vs PC battle. To be perfectly honest I am currently in the market for an MP3 player and am really leaning towards the Zune. Reasons being first and foremost I am not locked into a proprietary format for my music. If I buy an MP3, and I have been now that they are DRM free, then I own it and want to be able to use it wherever and on whatever device I choose. You can not do that with the Mac Itunes music, period! I will acknowledge the fact that Microsoft does work to overcome errors. Everyone expects them to have everything down pat but what other company do you know of that supports almost every device on this planet and also accounts for backward compatability. Certainly not the Apple Clan. I have seen too many times in our office how with each succeeding generation of Mac OS that new software for already exisiting applications has to be purchased. Very little compatibility there!


Now lest you think I am bashing Macs, I do like the fact that the newer, and I mean within the last 2 years, Macbook Pros can run both Apple and Windows OS's and that in itself is enough to make me want to try one. But then once more I am limited because the pricing of the Macbooks is exhorbitant and prevents me from buying one. Apple still currently has much hardware that is way over priced and perhaps they would do better if they were a bit more aware of what the mass market can tolerate in terms of pricing.


Be that as it may, I still feel that the Zune has many features which make it a better purchase. First is no proprietary music format. Second is it's wireless capability and third, it is not tied to a clunky interface known as ITunes which has been reviewed by many as a tired and worn out music application. Once more I feel Apple needs to open it's eyes to what the MARKET wants and not stick with what IT feels is best for the market.



And for those that look back to the Y2K fiasco, that was more a pc hardware error than Microsofts fault. The internal clocks on the PCs were what was causing the whole problem and though Microsoft worked to overcome that situation they were the ones blamed for it. Not bad for a company who supposedly doesnt care about the mass market!

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}Reasons being first and foremost I am not locked into a proprietary format for my music. If I buy an MP3, and I have been now that they are DRM free, then I own it and want to be able to use it wherever and on whatever device I choose. You can not do that with the Mac Itunes music, period!{quote}

Both iTunes and the iPod support MP3 format. iTunes will even import CD's in MP3 format, if you so desire. You aren't locked in to any proprietary format. In fact, iTunes' default format, AAC, is not an Apple proprietary format; it is a standardized format developed to be a superior successor to MP3.

{quote}Second is it's wireless capability and third, it is not tied to a clunky interface known as ITunes which has been reviewed by many as a tired and worn out music application. Once more I feel Apple needs to open it's eyes to what the MARKET wants and not stick with what IT feels is best for the market.{quote}

Considering the iPod and iTunes' market dominance, with no shortage of alternatives available, it appears that Apple have listened to what the market wants.

[MarioJP]

I never liked the ipod and itunes. Why are you even forced to use itunes to add music to your player. There is no such thing as manual anymore. If you add a mp3 file to your ipod the player wont see it. But if you add it through using itunes then it will see it. With that said there are way better players that all u do is open up windows explorer right click on that folder and create a playlist once the songss has been added and done!!. No need to have music management software to be installed. Tired of the auto sync it screws up the playlist

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}Why are you even forced to use itunes to add music to your player.{quote}

You aren't forced to use iTunes with an iPod. Lots of people use different software.

{quote} If you add a mp3 file to your ipod the player wont see it. But if you add it through using itunes then it will see it.{quotes}

That's because iTunes is database software. Like any other database software, if the data (in this case a media file) is not added to the database, the database software doesn't know of its existence. It doesn't take any more steps or effort to add music to iTunes than it does to add music to a folder in a file browser. Playlists are also as easy as, if not easier than the process you describe for creating playlists in Windows Explorer.

{quote}Tired of the auto sync it screws up the playlist{quote}

I don't like auto sync, either. That's why I keep it turned off in iTunes.

[MarioJP]

Or how about not using no software and keep it optional. With my sansa i can create a folder anywhere on the device and add songs and right click and create a playlist and bam your done!. Glad i am staying away from apple products.

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

Apparently a lot more people like the way the iPod works compared to the Sansa. From your description, the Sansa isn't any easier or better, only different.

[Spiderich]

Jaywalker, I concede to your points about importing mp3s into the Ipod but when you buy music from the Itunes store it is downloaded in the ACC format and then you can not play it anywhere else. This was part of the reason I never bought any music from the store. There was no way to be able to play it or download it to any other device. I was able to burn one cd and when I lost it I was not able to make another. So basically Itunes is holding you hostage for any music you buy. You own it but oh no you don't ! Not a selling point to me.

Also you can never sync your music because anything non Apple is over written. I have seen it happen time and again to people and that is one of the most irritating aspects of the Ipod. Now I agree that you can do it manually but I thought Apple was all about just being intuitive and knowing what you want. Sorry had to get that shot in! I use it every time our Mac guy has a problem on His G5.

My point being that I refuse to be held hostage by any company that forces you into a proprietary format. I have resisted the wma format from Microsoft because they force you to have a license for each and every song you download or burn. I have also boycotted Sony for that as well as other companies who do not allow me the freedom to do what I want with items I purchase. I owe you nothing once I purchase it so keep your grubby little paws off.

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}when you buy music from the Itunes store it is downloaded in the ACC format and then you can not play it anywhere else. {quote}

That is only true of the tracks with FairPlay DRM, easily identified by their 128 kbs bitrate. iTunes Plus tracks do not have DRM, and can be played on any player that supports AAC format. Apple would prefer to sell music without DRM, but few of the music labels allow it. AAC is a standardized codec supported by several manufacturers' players, including the Zune. Other manufacturers that support the format are Sony, Creative, Sandisk and Nintendo. AAC is also part of the MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 standards. AAC has a higher quality to file size ratio than MP3, and was actually developed (by Dolby, Fraunhofer IIS, and others) to be the successor of MP3. It is not proprietary to Apple.

{quote}There was no way to be able to play it or download it to any other device. I was able to burn one cd and when I lost it I was not able to make another.{quote}

An unchanged playlist with FairPlay tracks can be burned seven times. The resulting CD contains no DRM. There's no limit on the number of times individual FairPlay tracks can be burned. If you were only able to burn a single CD, then the issue was most likely a PEBKAC error.

{quote}Also you can never sync your music because anything non Apple is over written.{quote}

Huh? What do you mean with that statement? I've never had any issues keeping my music synced, and it certainly didn't all come from Apple. It sounds as though you simply need to explore the preference settings.

{quote}My point being that I refuse to be held hostage by any company that forces you into a proprietary format.{quote}

What proprietary format? Apple do not force me to use any particular format for my music. I can even use legacy MP3 if I desire.

[Spiderich]

And so because I dont fit into the mac fanboy club you feel that what I do or do not do is a PEBKAC error. Problem Exists Between Keyboard and Chair for those that dont know what it means. Nice!!!!! I am more than willing to discuss this reasonably but because I do not agree, you basically call me stupid. Exactly why I feel that Apple needs to change it's elitest attutide and come back down to earth with the rest of us.



I have done my research and always do so and very rarely have I wasted money because of this. My research tells me that a Zune is in my future and most certainly not an Ipod. Oh and btw I bought my son an Ipod for his graduation last year so I do know of what I speak wether you chose to believe so or not.

Just try and stick to the issue next time and perhaps you really will impress someone!

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}I am more than willing to discuss this reasonably but because I do not agree, you basically call me stupid. {quote}

Pointing out that an issue is not inherent to an application, but rather user error is in no way the same thing as calling that user stupid. The overwhelming majority of iTunes issues that I hear about from users all boil down to one thing: iTunes preferences are not set in a manner consistent with the user's desired behavior from the application. If some users would ask how to get iTunes to behave in a particular manner instead of making incorrect claims about limitations of iTunes, they would most likely find the responses more amiable.

For example, How can I get iTunes to import songs in a format other than 128 kbs AAC? will work a lot better than I won't use an iPod because Apple locks users into a proprietary format. Likewise, How can I burn an album downloaded from the iTunes Music Store onto CD? I know I've done it before, but I can't seem to remember how I did it. will work better than I was able to burn one CD, and when I lost it I was not able to make another. So, basically, iTunes is holding you hostage for any music you buy.

When someone starts talking smack about how iTunes isn't capable of accomplishing tasks that more knowledgeable users can do very easily with iTunes, that person should not be surprised when the issue is correctly identified as user error.

{quote}I have done my research and always do ?{quote}

It doesn't appear that you have, with respect to iTunes. If you had, then you would not made so many inaccurate claims about the limitations of iTunes.

{quote}Just try and stick to the issue next time and perhaps you really will impress someone!{quote}

Stick to the issue? Like using a discussion about a Zune bug as an opportunity to bash all things Apple with unfounded FUD?

[SkateNY]

Very nice job, Jaywalker. Unmasking Apple bashers and Microsoft shills has never been easier, but I've rarely seen anyone do it so well and in such an informed manner.

[HuCo]

Love the vitriol, folks. Why does everyone try to make Microsoft out to be the evil empire and every other company out to be flawless? Zune's a pretty decent player; so is IPod. Seems whenever I read comparison stories neither usually wins, so let's just accept that people like different things.

soundguyami - you missed an important point. Microsoft not only updates firmware with each update, but the new features are available and useable on older 1st Gen hardware. Case in point - my 1st Gen has all the functionality of the 3rd gen players, including features like buying music at WiFi hot spots and tagging songs off FM radio, and all I had to do was download the new firmware.

This is pretty rare these days - a company letting older customers get the latest upgrades for free, when the usual (Apple included) model seems to be to make you salivate over a new feature that you cannot upgrade your model to use, in hopes that you'll buy a new one. It is a common and hugely profitable gimmick, but one that should annoy us all as consumers.

Let's also take a step back here - yeah, it was inconvenient, and a stupid mistake that MS didn't handle well, but my Zune didn't work for a day. Big deal. The next day it worked just fine. And if you didn't try to turn it on that day you'd never know if yours was effected or not.

I know my life wasn't actually ruined by my player not working that day.

[SkateNY]

What you're proposing is gratuitous, deceitful and overyly simplistic.

One need not "try to make Microsoft out to be the evil empire" in order to demonstrate their well-documented and often abysmal failures. One need only report the facts.

I don't like AT&T. Not because they're a huge multinational conglomerate. Not because the prices they charge for their services are disgustingly high. Not because they have a history of abusing competition. I don't like AT&t because their services suck.

[Spiderich]

Ahhh and once again the mac fanboi's rise to the occasion. I was not denegrating all things Apple. As I said earlier in one of my post, which you preferably ignored, that both Apple and Microsoft have made serious errors in much of what they have done. Microsoft perhaps even more with huge errors like ME and maybe even Vista, the first Xbox. Huge blunders on their part and yes costly to some. But unlike you I point out those mistakes on both sides while you sit there and openely embrace the Apple God! Good for you and all like you! You obviously are not open minded and wish to let each live their own. But like I said earlier this is one of the main reasons I can not stand Apple and it is because you people become arrogant and feel all things Apple fall from the sky in a display of Divine grace.



You point supposed errors in my communique and yet many others have reported on the same issues. I guess that makes the majority of us unlearned and hopelessly below your Royal Apple lineage. Well my good men, you only clearly continue to point out why Apple does belong in the minority while the rest of us are smart enough not to embrace it. Oh but then you should have known that because all you Mac people are "intuitive"



This will be my last post because I really choose to carry on a reasonable discussion and care not to be called out by ignorant people. It is too bad this world is no longer tolerant of others who follow a different path. I have many friends and relatives who do own Macs and we have a FRIENDLY banter going between us about Mac and PC. I respect their choice as they do mine and we do happen to coexist in a friendly intelligent environment.

[JaywalkerExtraordinaire]

{quote}But like I said earlier this is one of the main reasons I can not stand Apple and it is because you people become arrogant and feel all things Apple fall from the sky in a display of Divine grace.{quote}

It is hardly arrogance to correct someone who makes false assertion in a public forum, whether those claims are out of ignorance or malice.

{quote}you only clearly continue to point out why Apple does belong in the minority while the rest of us are smart enough not to embrace it.{quote}

I think you will find, should you do the research you claim to always do, that the majority of MP3 players sold are iPods. Apparently the majority like the way Apple has approached the digital music player market.

{quote}This will be my last post because I really choose to carry on a reasonable discussion and care not to be called out by ignorant people.{quote}

That's pretty funny, considering it was you who demonstrated ignorance in your posts by making such absurd false claims.