[rgreen4]

That's the basic idea behind Linux, but because it had no central direction and control, we have 105 versions (distros) that combined make up about 2% of the market. And it's free. But incomplete as far as drivers. I used a Puppy Linux CD to boot the new machine I'm building but it did not recognize the Samsung monitor or the integrated video card, so it defaulted to 800x600. I was ok with that, because it was just the smoke test, and there was no HD in the machine. Later, when I installed Vista HP, it recognized both, and it was the orignal version of Vista and Puppy Linux was a download 3 months ago.
Of course with that philosopy we would never have had DOS, nor the Apple II OS, everything would still be CP/M. When you take competition out, there is not drive to improve and change. If everyone used the same kernel and there was a problem with the kernel, who would fix it? Like Linux, everyone would become no one.

[number6]

JimH443 said:

Do they have a RIGHT to XP? Maybe not. However, it seems incredibly unethical to force someone to buy a computer with Vista installed (just try to buy brand name computer without it installed) and then charge them extra to have the OS they would have preferred to have preinstalled in the first place. To me, that's like selling a prebuilt computer with a Blu-Ray burner, then charging extra to have it removed and replaced with a regular 4.5 GB DVD burner.

Ah, but we don't legislate ethics, do we? Governments are instituted to punish criminals and protect people's rights. Her rights weren't violated and it shouldn't be illegal to sell an OS for any price the author chooses.

[WinTard]

Reminds me of the silly lady that spilled coffee into her crotch, then sued... ROFLMAO!

Google: Results 1 - 10 of about 38,400 for mcdonalds coffee lawsuit. (0.13 seconds)

>Excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeckv.McDonald's_Restaurants
>Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants,[1] also known as the ?McDonald's coffee case,? is a 1994 product liability lawsuit that became a flashpoint in the debate in the U.S. over tort reform after a jury awarded $2.86 million to a woman who burned herself with hot coffee. The trial judge reduced the total award to $640,000, and the parties settled for a confidential amount before an appeal was decided. The case entered popular understanding as an example of frivolous litigation;[2] ABC News calls the case ?the poster child of excessive lawsuits.?[3]
>
>Liebeck's attorneys argued that McDonald's coffee was "defective", claiming that it was too hot and more likely to cause serious injury than coffee served at any other place. Moreover, McDonald's had refused several prior opportunities to settle for less than the $640,000 ultimately awarded.[4] Reformers defend the popular understanding of the case as materially accurate; note that the vast majority of judges to consider similar cases dismiss them before they get to a jury; and argue that McDonald's refusal to offer more than a nuisance settlement reflects the meritless nature of the suit rather than any wrongdoing.[5][6]

Perhaps the lady was just silly, but the jury was definitely stupid...

The one suing now isn't stupid, she's an evil opportunist IMHO. If she didn't like it, she didn't have to buy it. If you buy almost anywhere, there is a money-back guarantee, from the likes of Best Buy, Wal-Mart, and any reasonable store. Dell offers a thirty day satisfaction guarantee as well. So? What's the excuse?

Our corporate standard (at the moment is WinXP-SP3). All our workstation hardware comes with XP preloaded by Dell. We never have to buy Vista. So this is load of bull. And Dell also offers blade servers without any operating system, optionally preloaded with Windows Server 2003 / 2008, or Red Hat.

There is NO MERIT to this case. IANAL but morally this is just plain wrong.

[WinTard]

>A confused WinTard wrote:
>Well? I don't know what happened to this post??? Why is it completely blank? Was it edited by a moderator? I don't remember as to what it was all about..
>
>Don't worrry, plenty more of where that came from.
>
>Now I suspect the problem is sitting between the chair and keyboard, in this case me! But of course first thought there is a bug in the forums software... LOL! We're all humans after all...

Ah, now I remember my point:

Well, since justice must be applied the same for everybody, in the case of Apple, let's say I like the so 'in', cool, stylish, and sexy Mac hardware, can I purchase it without Macos? I mean, since it is a mere vulgar PC compatible in disguise, and will boot XP, Vista, Ubuntu and all other PC compatible operating systems based on Intel x86 architecture, shouldn't someone be entitled to not pay for OS X? Since they want another operating system on it? What's the difference in this case?

~~~~~~~~~~
What's good for the goose is also good for the gander.

[JimH443]

[quote name='number6']
>

JimH443 said:

> Do they have a RIGHT to XP? Maybe not. However, it seems incredibly unethical to force someone to buy a computer with Vista installed (just try to buy brand name computer without it installed) and then charge them extra to have the OS they would have preferred to have preinstalled in the first place. To me, that's like selling a prebuilt computer with a Blu-Ray burner, then charging extra to have it removed and replaced with a regular 4.5 GB DVD burner.

Ah, but we don't legislate ethics, do we? Governments are instituted to punish criminals and protect people's rights. Her rights weren't violated and it shouldn't be illegal to sell an OS for any price the author chooses.

And you have given an excellent explanation of why this is not being heard in a CRIMINAL trial. Civil trials are, by their very nature, based on ethics. The woman was harmed, and she's seeking redress.

[WinTard]

Hey coastie65, I disagree with you. Even more governmental interference? What about free market and capitalism, which our society is based upon? Last I looked, we are in a democratic society, and are not socialists or communists. The EU are talking about forcing Microsoft to pre-load competing web browsers other than IE. They are not saying not to load Windows. That choice is made by manufacturers. If they wish to do so, they certainly can offer no-preloaded operating systems blank machines. It is legal. And Dell does it. Just check it out online at http://dell.com .

[WinTard]

[quote name='JimH443']
> [quote name='number6']
> >

JimH443 said:

> > Do they have a RIGHT to XP? Maybe not. However, it seems incredibly unethical to force someone to buy a computer with Vista installed ( just try to buy brand name computer without it installed ) and then charge them extra to have the OS they would have preferred to have preinstalled in the first place. To me, that's like selling a prebuilt computer with a Blu-Ray burner, then charging extra to have it removed and replaced with a regular 4.5 GB DVD burner.Ah, but we don't legislate ethics, do we? Governments are instituted to punish criminals and protect people's rights. Her rights weren't violated and it shouldn't be illegal to sell an OS for any price the author chooses.
And you have given an excellent explanation of why this is not being heard in a CRIMINAL trial. Civil trials are, by their very nature, based on ethics. The woman was harmed, and she's seeking redress.

Yeah, she chose to harm herself, by voluntarily purchasing in the first place, then sue... So she's seeking to redress her own actions. Real smart eh?

It's not like she didn't know. Upon first boot, the EULA comes up, and asks if you agree? If not, return product for a full-refund... That was her right. She didn't exercise it.

But no, she didn't sue the brand name manufacturer, but instead went to sue Microsoft! Only in the USA, the land of trivial lawsuits...

Sounds a bit capricious IMHO. Another parallel comes to mind: Anna Nicole Smith. Where is she now?

As to your statement ( just try to buy brand name computer without it installed ), why not look at Dell?

[JimH443]

[quote name='WinTard']
> [quote name='JimH443']
> > [quote name='number6']
> > >

JimH443 said:

> > > Do they have a RIGHT to XP? Maybe not. However, it seems incredibly unethical to force someone to buy a computer with Vista installed (just try to buy brand name computer without it installed) and then charge them extra to have the OS they would have preferred to have preinstalled in the first place. To me, that's like selling a prebuilt computer with a Blu-Ray burner, then charging extra to have it removed and replaced with a regular 4.5 GB DVD burner.Ah, but we don't legislate ethics, do we? Governments are instituted to punish criminals and protect people's rights. Her rights weren't violated and it shouldn't be illegal to sell an OS for any price the author chooses.
> And you have given an excellent explanation of why this is not being heard in a CRIMINAL trial. Civil trials are, by their very nature, based on ethics. The woman was harmed, and she's seeking redress.

>
>Yeah, she chose to harm herself, by purchasing in the first place, then sue... So she's seeking to redress her own actions. Real smart eh?

Quote

It's not like she didn't know. Upon first boot, the EULA comes up, and asks if you agree? If not, return product for a full-refund... That was her right. She didn't exercise it.

But no, she didn't sue the brand name manufacturer, but instead went to sue Microsoft! Only in the USA, the land of trivial lawsuits...

She chose to buy a brand name computer - she obviously wanted the hardware. Returning it for a full refund is not a viable or even reasonable option.

I agree - the manufacturer was complicit with the act and should be held responsible. Maybe if more mfr's had to pay for this hubris, then fewer computers would be sold with operating systems already on them.

[JimH443]

WinTard said:

As to your statement ( just try to buy brand name computer without it installed ), why not look at Dell?

I have - and never will again.

[Evildave]

Quote

Of course with that philosopy we would never have had DOS, nor the Apple II OS, everything would still be CP/M. When you take competition out, there is not drive to improve and change. If everyone used the same kernel and there was a problem with the kernel, who would fix it? Like Linux, everyone would become no one.

So, you're going to say Linux doesn't support your video hardware just because you grabbed ONE stripped-down basic distro with the with the most minimal X servers and optimized to fit completely into RAM on most machines?

Load up a 'bloated' Live CD like Ubuntu 8.10 that's heavily supported with all the drivers and more before you complain about 'compatibility' and make claims that 'nobody ever fixes anything'. Not only are there many versions of Linux, there are many versions of X, many versions of sound drivers, all specialized for different kinds of applications.

Maybe we should take the single-task stripped version of XP that Microsoft brewed up for the OLPC and draw BROAD conclusions about Microsuck Windoze from that?

[WinTard]

Oops, I might have pressed the wrong button {abuse} when I wanted to reply... Sorry!

Actually, each manufacturer, in signing an agreement legally binding contract with a vendor, mutually indemnifies each other from liabilities, thus this case might stand a chance, if she had sued the manufacturer...

I agree with you everyone should be entitled to purchase hardware without operating system preloaded. Do you agree?

Alas, if it isn't the case, for whatever reasons (including specific drivers, and support), everyone is entitled not to consider this or that manufacturer.

In my case, the brand-name I won't consider is Apple. Precisely for the very reasons you and I agree.

[rkinne01]

Um, did you even read the link you posted? On the surface yeah the hot coffee case did seem silly, that is until you looked at the facts in the case.

First fact is that the old lady didn't just get a minor burn, she got serious burns which required skin grafts.

Second fact is that this woman wasn't the first person to have been burned by McDonalds coffee.

Thrid fact is that McDonalds had been warned multiple times that they had set coffee machines at a dangerous level, they chose to ignore those warnings and served the coffee at unsafe temperatures.

Fourth Fact is that Mcdonalds had EVERY opportunity to settle this case, but chose to allow it to go to court where they lost.

Fifth Fact is that the woman's winnings from the case probably were eaten away on legal and medical fees, so she didn't walk away with a million dollars.

How anyone can conclude this "silly" woman didn't deserve some compensation is nuts. Still not convinced? Boil some water to 180 degrees, add coffee, stir in some cream, and sweeten it all with sugar then pour it on your crotch. I'm willing to bet you'll change your mind the instant the coffee hits your skin.

My family owned a Cafe for many years, I'd seen coffee spilled on quite a few people but never had I seen anyone need skin grafts afterwards. People have a right to expect safety standards from the businesses they frequent, especially from mega corporations like McDonalds. Shame on McDonalds for not doing the right thing by this woman.

[WinTard]

Scientifically, an 8oz cup of coffee, no matter how hot cannot exceed boiling water temperature, or 100 degrees celcius. Was it boiling coffee? It probably was like 80 degrees. Like any cup of coffee, or tea, everywhere, including your own house.

Listen people die in car crashes everyday, lose limbs, eyes, and get a paltry $5K for a thumb... The $2.86 Million amount the jury in the case awarded, was simply ridiculous. That is my point. Compensation? Yes. Reasonable please!

Tort? She spilled the hot beverage herself, onto herself, her own doing... Accidents happen. If the carafe exploded while she was an innocent bystander, then perhaps... Considering the trillions of cups of coffee consumed in the past, obviously she was exceptional?

[rkinne01]

"Returning it for a full refund is not a viable or even reasonable option."

Really why not? Most people if not satisfied with a microwave take it back, they'll return a TV if it doesn't perform to expectations, or will get a refund for Blu Ray players they don't like. Why is it any different for a PC?

[JimH443]

WinTard said:

Oops, I might have pressed the wrong button {abuse} when I wanted to reply... Sorry!

OOPS! LOL! I haven't heard anything yet if you did.

Quote

Actually, each manufacturer, in signing an agreement legally binding contract with a vendor, mutually indemnifies each other from liabilities, thus this case might stand a chance, if she had sued the manufacturer...

While this may be true (I really don't know), it may not be enforceable. Just because two parties agree does not mean or require that a third party must be held to that agreement. It is not at all unheard of to include legal language in a document that is nothing more than a "bluff." For example, it's only a bluff when the parking garage says it's not responsible for what happens to your car while parked there.

Quote

I agree with you everyone should be entitled to purchase hardware without operating system preloaded. Do you agree?

Alas, if it isn't the case, for whatever reasons (including specific drivers, and support), everyone is entitled not to consider this or that manufacturer.

In my case, the brand-name I won't consider is Apple. Precisely for the very reasons you and I agree.

We agree pretty much with these statements. I also will not consider anything that Apple sells (Mac, iPod, iPhone, etc) for this reason. I won't even consider Dell because without a whole lot of research (which may or may not be easily available) you can't be sure if it uses a standard plug on its power supply. Would you buy a computer that uses proprietary expansion slots? I know I wouldn't. Same goes for the power connection.

[JimH443]

rkinne01 said:

"Returning it for a full refund is not a viable or even reasonable option."

Really why not? Most people if not satisfied with a microwave take it back, they'll return a TV if it doesn't perform to expectations, or will get a refund for Blu Ray players they don't like. Why is it any different for a PC?

Why are computers different? Because there are two aspects to computers - hardware and software.

Let's think in terms of cars. You go to a new car lot. The only kind of engine that they come with is a gas gizzling 455 ci engine. You don't want one. You want something like a 1.5 liter engine. So you order one. One day it arrives - and you discover that on top of the "normal" price you had been charged an additional amount for the 1.5 liter engine. Is it reasonable to offer you one choice: take it or leave it? Keep in mind that all dealerships are pulling the same stunt.

[rkinne01]

Again did you even read the article YOU posted? She didn't get $2.86 million, YOUR article stated that she ended up with less than $600,000. The attorney fees she had to pay were enormous and the medical bills likely were sizabale as well, she probably ended up with a small fraction of the settlement. The article says the coffee was at 180 Degrees, easily hot enough to cause serious injury.

Yes people die in car accidents everyday and lose body parts, but if the accident is a result of defective products or services they deserve justice and to be compensated. I would like to know how we can put a price on someone's body parts? How much is your thumb or leg worth to you?

I work with handicapped people and let me tell it isn't cheap to adapt to life with a disability. Artificial limbs are not cheap and can cost thousands of dollars, alterrations to homes cost even more, and this isn't even including medical expenses. Trust me $5,000 is nothing when your life is disrupted by a physcial limitation. I have seen many families bankrupted by even "minor" accidents.

[rgreen4]

Why not? The normal engine is in the normal production run which means that all the fittings, mounts and assembly tools are already engineered and in place. Then someone comes along and wants an engine not in the option list, so they have to engineer the mounts, connections, fittings and take the car off the assembly line and manually mount the engine in the car. I suppose you expect them to do all the extra work free gratis?

In the case of a computer being shipped with Vista, the hard drives are imaged in large batches. In order to install XP, they have had to go back and find all the drivers for XP vs Vista and image a few drives since XP is not in high demand. This is borne out despite the protestations of the small but vocal anti-Vista crowd by the fact that despite the fact that XP has not been shipped to on line vendors in the last 7 months, both Newegg and Tiger Direct still have a selection on line.

If there was such a pent up demand for XP, the shelves should be bare by now, unless the ordered tens of millions of install CD's, which I doubt.

[WinTard]

>coastie65 wrote:A machine that runs Vista in a decent manner, is not an "Entry Level" machine due to the hardware requirements to run it. A senior on a small fixed income only wants to email and surf the web and probably swap photos. This can be done with an "Entry level" machine running XP Home, which is much cheaper. But due to the Omnipotent greed of Micro$oft, that need s a new cash cow to funnel money into the old bank account, they will force people like these to either spend money they can't afford, or eventually unable to be able to do this. This is due to an unquenchable greed on the part of Micro$oft, as there really isn't any advancement in technology, just repackaging existing technology. You Micro$oft fan boys best wake up and smell the coffee. This all about Micro$oft's bottom line and nothing else. No new technology, just rewritten and repackaged existing technology. coastie65

The exact same statement also applies to Apple and all of its cult fanatics iAMZ...

Not that you are a iAMZ, coastie65, I would never think so. Alas there are so many of them... Micro$oft, Apple and Linux fan boys are so annoying! All cry-babies and parasites...

~~~~~~~~~~
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
~ Winston Churchill

People do not stumble upon mountains, but molehills.
~ Confucius

It isn't the mountains ahead to climb that wear you out; it's the pebble in your shoe.
~ Muhammad Ali

Is not disease the rule of existence? There is not a lily pad floating on the river but has been riddled by insects. Almost every shrub and tree has its gall, oftentimes esteemed its chief ornament and hardly to be distinguished from the fruit. If misery loves company, misery has company enough. Now, at midsummer, find me a perfect leaf or fruit.
~ Henry David Thoreau (American Essayist, Poet and Philosopher, 1817-1862)

[Evildave]

Now then, ON topic, Dell as an example is a good one.

You can't buy MOST of their systems without Windoze.

You can buy a selection of bare-bones, basic hardware with Linux.

Interestingly enough MOST of those 'higher end' systems that they only sell with Windoze work just fine if you stick an Ubuntu Live CD in and boot it.

So what's the deal?
h1. Jean-Louis Gassée on why PC manufacturers don't sell non MS products
http://lists.essenti...s/msg00005.html

!http://forums.pcworld.com/legacyimages/
1!