[PCWorld]

Post your comments for New Apple Ads Ignore Price Wars, Focus on Business here

[XanderB]

Boy, Apple likes to attack MS with the same fluff repackaged eh? I have Windows Vista and have yet to have it lock up, get a blue screen, or have a virus. I have had a driver fail before, but that is not MS's fault.

[OldGuyCA]

Simplistic analysis - "Because Macs are undeniably more expensive than PCs, and Apple cannot claim otherwise."
Realistic analysis:
Apple does not make cheap computers. If price is your prime criteria, then you can buy a cheap Windows computer.
However, when you order a Windows laptop (Dell, HP, Lenovo, or Sony) equipped equivalently to an Apple MacBook or MacBook Pro, you'll find that the prices are very close to each other, and the Apple is often not the most expensive.
----
Unfortunately, in our thinking challenged world a realistic analysis is just too complex for a mass-market advertisement.

[rharder]

Check your dictionary. "through a vulnerability in iWork '09." You're apparently talking about the trojan software installed from pirated copies of iWork. That's not a vulnerability.

[photonemesis]

The article is correct about these ads on both sides not really accomplishing anything. I think Apple ads are amusing because I like both of those guys and think they are hilarious but they would not make me switch to Mac (although I already I am a Mac user). That being said both Windows and Mac OS have their purpose and should not be compared as they are two different beasts.

[XanderB]

photonemesis says:
Mon Apr 20 08:40:30 PDT 2009
Re: New Apple Ads Ignore Price Wars, Focus on Business
The article is correct about these ads on both sides not really accomplishing anything. I think Apple ads are amusing because I like both of those guys and think they are hilarious but they would not make me switch to Mac (although I already I am a Mac user). That being said both Windows and Mac OS have their purpose and should not be compared as they are two different beasts.


Agreed. This Mac vs PC argument will never end, and there is no real point of being redundant. I also admit that the commercials are quite amusing, and I did giggle at the time traveler one.

[Chris32]

Old Guy CA

You say "Apple does not make cheap computers. If price is your prime criteria, then you can buy a cheap Windows computer."

Your thought process is way off. Apple hardware is no different then there PC counterparts. So your theory of apple hardware being better is a fib at best.

You say "However, when you order a Windows laptop (Dell, HP, Lenovo, or Sony) equipped equivalently to an Apple MacBook or MacBook Pro, you'll find that the prices are very close to each other, and the Apple is often not the most expensive".

again Way off base.....otherwise this wouldnt even be an article..

[BadBob]

If you think that an Apple and PC with the same hardware cost about the same, then you MUST be an Apple fanboy. It's proven the Apple cost about 20% more with exactly the same hardware. How can you think they are priced about the same??

[StormSlayer]

I agree 100% Chris32,
The underlining hardware is exactly the same on Apple and Windows based computers. Apple just tries to drive the “Coolness” factor.
As for laptops, the only way I could get my laptop anywhere near the price of a Mac Book was to buy an Alienware laptop (with dual 9800 video cards, and loaded with much, much, more…), which would blow away the Mac Book Pro for the same price.
As for Vista vs. OSX, OSX is a better operating system. Microsoft still has issues with Vista and they really need to focus on them, but they are trying. Vista is running a lot better then when it first hit the market. Personally, I run XP on the majority of my systems, except two: One with Vista, and one Mac Mini.
As I see it, the big problem for Apple is; now that they are starting to get more popular, can they keep the stable OS as their market share grows. I personally believe the answer to that question is “NO”. If Apple ever does reach the same size market share as Microsoft, People are going to start demanding the flexibility to buy off the shelf hardware and install it in their Apple computers. I also believe, we will see just as many security patches, viruses, spyware, malware, etc… as we do in Windows at that time. Hackers will start to focus on the Mac as it becomes more popular, it’s not fiction, that’s a fact. If people truly do believe that Mac’s are invincible, they are going to learn the lesson the hard way down the road.
Just my 2 cents….

[fmaxwell]

bq. "Apple hardware is no different then there PC counterparts. So your theory of apple hardware being better is a fib at best."
As a professional engineer, that kind of statement galls me. Just what kind of analysis have you done of Apple hardware? Have you counted bypass capacitors and looked at their specs? Have you analyzed the amount of noise and ringing on the bus? Have you looked how clean the power supplies are with an oscilloscope? How many layers are there in the motherboard of the latest Mac Pro vs. a comparable Dell tower? Have you analyzed the fit and finish of the mechanical components? Which laptops by the Windows PC vendors have cases made from CNC-machined blocks of aluminum -- because most of the new MacBooks do. Are the fans in Dells, HPs, Compaqs, etc. all of the same quality and all of identical quality to those in the Mac computers?

Sure, Mac's use some off-the-shelf components (hard drives, optical drives, switches, chips), but a computer is more than a list of specs. I can show you two 1066mhz SO-DIMMs with identical published specs and one will be reliable and the other will not. I can show you two fans that are the same size, spin at the same speed, move the same amount of air, and the one with the cheap bearings or bushings will be dead long before the high-quality unit.

And, have you ever looked at a Mac Pro tower. If so, name any major PC manufacturer that makes a case that is even in the ballpark of that quality. Alienware? Hardly. Lian Li? Cheap junk by comparison. Thermaltake? Again, plastic junk. The Mac Pro is a machine which has no equal in the PC world. From the drive carriers that allow you to swap hard drives without touching a cable to the RAM riser that make upgrades and repairs quick and easy, there's nothing that compares.


And lest you call me a Mac fanboy, be aware that I started using Microsoft products back when all they sold was BASIC interpreters (late 1970s) and only switched to the Mac within the last six months.

[fmaxwell]

bq. If you think that an Apple and PC with the same hardware cost about the same, then you MUST be an Apple fanboy. It's proven the Apple cost about 20% more with exactly the same hardware.
Except that your statement is meaningless since no PC manufacturers use "exactly the same hardware." How many of them have laptop bodies made from CNC-machined solid blocks of aluminum like the MacBooks have? How many of them have magnetically coupled power supply connectors (so that tripping on the cable doesn't topple the notebook computer to the floor)? How many of them have ECC (error-correcting) RAM mounted on an easy-access daughter cards like the Mac Pros? How many of the PCs come with four PCI Express 2.0 slots? How many of them come with aluminum cases that are manufactured to tighter tolerances than you have the tools to even measure?
I can show you two motherboards that are radically different in cost, quality, and reliability, but that use the same chipset, CPU, bus speeds, and have the same number and type of DIMM slots and expansion board slots. I can show you computer products that have higher reliability just because they have more QC inspections and higher standards for assembly.
The average computer user isn't an engineer and Microsoft is taking advantage of that. They know that there are enough "Laurens" out there in the world that think that the quality of a display is measured with a diagonal ruler.

[HeroofAvalon]

Quote

As a professional engineer, that kind of statement galls me. Just what kind of analysis have you done of Apple hardware? Have you counted bypass capacitors and components? Which laptops by the looked at their specs? Have you analyzed the amount of noise and ringing on the bus? Have you looked how clean the power supplies are with an oscilloscope? How many layers are there in the motherboard of the latest Mac Pro vs. a comparable Dell tower? Have you analyzed thefit and finish of the mechanical Windows PC vendors have cases made from CNC-machined blocks of aluminum

Let's be fair for a second...you haven't done any of this stuff either. The day someone does, you let me know. But by and large, of all the pictures I've seen of the guts within a Mac and all that goes into it, to me, it looks like you could just go to Newegg and pick up the exact same thing.

Quote

...but a computer is more than a list of specs.

Uh, not really. Pretty much whatever's inside makes the machine. RAM is RAM, a CPU is a CPU, etc. Again, the day you can prove that Mac personally manufacturers all their parts specially for their operating system (which sounds like it'd be INSANELY cost-prohibitive) is the day I yield. But I've seen conflicting claims before between Mac themselves (guess whose favor their quotes weigh in?) and other users and reviewers. Apple, of course, claims they manufacture their own equipment. From the opposing viewpoint (people, supposedly without bias), it is stated that Apple pays X amount to the actual manufacturers to stamp their logo on the product. Now, I'll never believe Apple when they talk about their own product, because let's face it, any company would do anything to put a positive spin on their lifeline.

Again though, prove me wrong, and I'll admit it.

Quote

I can show you two 1066mhz SO-DIMMs with identical published specs and one will be reliable and the other will not. I can show you two fans that are the same size, spin at the same speed, move the same amount of air, and the one with the cheap bearings or bushings will be dead long before the high-quality unit.

Not necessarily...you're taking chance and odds and throwing them out the window.

[elgarak]

"Despite the recent outbreak of a Trojan horse turning Macs into zombies through a vulnerability in iWork '09, Apple computers are more reliable machines."
This is false. The trojan was hidden in illegal copies of iWork '09 distributed via torrents. The trojan did not use any vulnerability in iWork '09, nor did it come with iWork '09 as such.

[fmaxwell]

bq. "Let's be fair for a second...you haven't done any of this stuff either."
I'm not the one making unsubtantiated claims, you are.
bq. "The day someone does, you let me know."
That kind of thing is done every day by engineers. What passes for "good enough" varies from firm to firm.
I'm an electronics engineer in the aerospace industry. I can recognize quality electronic subassemblies when I see them. I can see that the quality of construction on the Macs is far better than on Dells, HPs, Compaqs, etc. I've been trained in PC board inspection and have done it for hours on end with blacklights and magnification. I have been trained in soldering standards. I've designed and routed boards and bought them from various vendors. I know that a given board house can do anything from low-end consumer junk to NASA-spec boards that cost more than your home.

bq. "But by and large, of all the pictures I've seen of the guts within a Mac and all that goes into it, to me, it looks like you could just go to Newegg and pick up the exact same thing."
Absolutely untrue. Show me a Mac Pro motherboard at Newegg, complete with four PCI Express slots. Show me any motherboard at Newegg that would fit into any Mac system. Show me any case at Newegg that even approaches the one used for the Mac Pro.
bq. Uh, not really. Pretty much whatever's inside makes the machine. RAM is RAM, a CPU is a CPU, etc.
That's a level of ignorance that just amazes me. You actually believe that all memory chips of a given capacity have equal reliability -- that RAM from Micron, Samsung, and Hynix is no different than RAM from some 3rd tier foundry? You honestly believe that the number of board layers, board layout, quality and use of bypass caps, inductors, and resistors has no bearing on reliability or performance? Can you explain why some motherboards can overclock better than others using the same chipset, RAM, and CPU. Seriously, explain that.
bq. Again, the day you can prove that Mac personally manufacturers all their parts specially for their operating system (which sounds like it'd be INSANELY cost-prohibitive) is the day I yield.
Okay, you just outdid yourself. Why don't you yield now and stop making foolish statements?
The question is not whether Steve Jobs is hand-carving transistors into silicon. It's whether the entire system is engineered and built better and whether the components and subassemblies are of higher quality. Of course Apple pays other firms to produce chips and subassemblies! You and I could go into the same wine shop and I could come out with an exquisite $200/bottle wine and you could choose to buy something for under $5. That we bought it at the same place does not make it identical (or even comparable). So the fact that a given manufacturer will make boards for HP, Compaq, Dell, and Apple does not mean that they are making equivalent quality boards for all three vendors.

[HeroofAvalon]

> I'm not the one making unsubtantiated claims, you are.
[/quote]
What claim? You were grilling someone else. I stepped in to offer my viewpoint. The way I see it, my claims are no less "unsubstantiated" than yours. All I asked for was a little evidence that Apple actually does what you claim they do--and instead of that, you snapped at me.


Besides, Apple may make the cases for their computers, but that proves nothing at all. Just because they manufacture their own plastic/metal/what-have-you to accept only certain motherboards, GPU's, hard drives, etc. doesn't mean that they're making everything--that was my point. So, Apple may have a deal with certain parts manufacturers, that they construct their towers so that they can accept those companies particular parts and no one else's. That may be the situation, but doesn't mean they churn out chips and buses and such. I believe we had a bit of a breakdown in communications somewhere.




> Absolutely untrue. Show me a Mac Pro motherboard at Newegg, complete with four PCI Express slots. Show me any motherboard at Newegg that would fit into any Mac system. Show me any case at Newegg that even approaches the one used for the Mac Pro.
[/quote]
Actually, this kind of fits my point from earlier. In my belief, and from some of the evidence I've seen, Mac very well may specifically design their computer cases to accept certain motherboards and not others. I'm curious as to why it has to be "four" PCI Express slots though. I'm pretty sure they're out there, but I really don't have a reference to use (I've never seen one of Mac's cases sold by a retailer--and there's probably a good reason for that).




> That's a level of ignorance that just amazes me. You actually believe that all memory chips of a given capacity have equal reliability -- that RAM from Micron, Samsung, and Hynix is no different than RAM from some 3rd tier foundry? You honestly believe that the number of board layers, board layout, quality and use of bypass caps, inductors, and resistors has no bearing on reliability or performance? Can you explain why some motherboards can overclock better than others using the same chipset, RAM, and CPU. Seriously, explain that.
[/quote]
Honestly, I've never seen any proof that states otherwise. Essentially, it is as I stated. RAM is RAM, no matter how you look at it. Speed can differ, materials can differ, structural design can differ, but at the end of the day, RAM is still RAM, no matter how you look at it. I've heard of many "high-performance" stick sets that were supposedly the most reliable in their class, and then there are a dozen bad reviews about quality littered amongst the others wherever I go.



But don't try and intimidate me with all the talk about "bypass caps" and "inductors" and such. I take that as an offense against my intelligence and as a low-brow tactic to try and get me to go away.



As for the specifics of why some products overclock better? I can't be technical about it because that's not the area of my expertise. I've built computers and taken them apart. I can tell you what each individual "gut" does, but I can't tell you what makes it tick. While we're in the area of this, why don't we ask why certain processors, for example, from the same class can OC higher than its twin? Perhaps, because, on a microscopic level, when you're working that close to something and there's a slight error in the manufacturing, that "error" could rob the piece of its potential.



But I've gotten tired of wasting effort where it's obvious no progress will be made.

[StormSlayer]

First of all, I can’t believe how limited your view is when it comes to computer hardware. There are many manufactures on the market today that produce computer components that not only equal the quality of Apple’s hardware, but can also do better. Basically, Apple designed and builds their own motherboard. Their motherboard is a great design, I will not argue that, but other manufactures such as Intel and Asus both put out high quality products that not only match Apple, but can also beat them.
Do you really think that 4 PCIE is something special? Both Intel (The BOXD5400XS) and ASUS (The M3A79-T Deluxe, M4A79 Deluxe 790FX, M4A79T Deluxe, P5Q Premium ATX, just to name a few) have many motherboards that that come with 4PCIE ports.
The reason you can’t find a motherboard that will fit in to a Mac case, is because Apple will not let them. Apple won’t even allow anyone to run their OS on any other hardware, other then Apple’s, even though it has been done. Psystar started selling computers running the Mac OS, and guess what, it worked. Not only did it work, but some of their computers actually out performed the computers that are made by Apple. What did Apple do, they sued them, why you ask? The official reason is “Psystar is infringing on our copyrights”, the actual reason Apple doesn’t want the general public to know that any hardware can run Apple’s OS for a lot less and work the same, if not better.
As for other hardware inside of an Apple, who makes it? Not Apple. They don’t make their RAM, they don’t make their processor, they don’t make their hard drive, and they don’t make their optical drives. They purchase it from other companies, and NO they are not specially made for apple, they are products that are already offered by the company and are either off the shelf or slightly modified to fit inside of the Apple. (With the exception of the processor from Intel for the Mac Book Pro of course) Here’s a list:
Processor: Intel
Hard Drives: Either from Seagate or Western Digital
Graphics: ATI or nVidia (reference diagrams used, built by another manufacture)
Memory: Samsung, Hynix, or Micron
And the funny part is, depending on when you buy your Apple computer; you can actually get different memory, hard drive, etc… they buy in bulk what ever they can get cheaper at the time. Try doing some searching sometime and look for “what hardware is inside my Mac”
If you really believe that there is nothing better then the hardware in an Apple, I truly feel sorry for any people that are in the “aerospace industry” that depend on hardware that you are involved in. Guess what? Apple’s hardware gets RMA’d too.
I work with a lot of electronic engineers and they just laugh when they see how narrow minded your out look on hardware is.

[asiafish]

Chris32 said:

Old Guy CA


You say "Apple does not make cheap computers. If price is your prime criteria, then you can buy a cheap Windows computer."


Your thought process is way off. Apple hardware is no different then there PC counterparts. So your theory of apple hardware being better is a fib at best.

No, his analysis is spot on. Don't compare a MacBook Pro to a Dell Inspiron, compare it to a Lenovo ThinkPad W500 with high-end discreet graphics. Apple only sells high-end machines. Look on Lenovo, Sony, HP or even Dell's business site at their high-end business models and you will find thin, light and well-built computers that are often comparable (in hardware) to Apple's. Those machines are sold at comparable prices.

I should know. My last MacBook Pro was $2000 and my last ThinkPad T60p was also $2000.

Quote

You say "However, when you order a Windows laptop (Dell, HP, Lenovo, or Sony) equipped equivalently to an Apple MacBook or MacBook Pro, you'll find that the prices are very close to each other, and the Apple is often not the most expensive".


again Way off base.....otherwise this wouldnt even be an article..

You must be looking at the 2" thick plastic-bodied consumer-grade models on the shelf at Best Buy. Those are not comparably equipped. Comparably equipped is more than processor, RAM, hard drive and screen. It is also build-quality, battery life, size and weight.

[fmaxwell]

bq. Mac very well may specifically design their computer cases to accept certain motherboards and not others. I'm curious as to why it has to be "four" PCI Express slots though. I'm pretty sure they're out there, but I really don't have a reference to use (I've never seen one of Mac's cases sold by a retailer--and there's probably a good reason for that).
The Mac motherboards are designed by Apple and do not fit into standard PC cases. They are not a PC-standard form factor. They are unique to the Apple product line. The example of four PCI Express slots shows how the Mac products are unique -- and one of their strengths. You can put four high-speed, 3D video cards into a Mac Pro and support many monitors -- up to four of the 30" displays or eight conventional monitors (assuming dual-head video cards). Or you can use those very high speed slots for RAID cards or other high-speed peripherals.
bq. Speed can differ, materials can differ, structural design can differ, but at the end of the day, RAM is still RAM, no matter how you look at it.
No, grasshopper, it doesn't work like that. There are not multiple materials or structural designs -- it's doped silicon wafers. A DRAM chip is an IC made of millions of transistors and capacitors. A transistor and a capacitor are paired to create a single bit of data. The capacitor holds the bit of information -- a 0 or a 1. The transistor acts as a switch that lets the control circuitry on the memory chip read the capacitor or change its state. The size of the transistors, the quality of the doped silicon, the physical stresses on the wafer, the thermal bond between the wafer and the chip housing all affect the speed and reliability of the parts. It also affects how tolerant they are of high temperatures, how much current they draw, how much of a load they present to the bus that drives them.
bq. But don't try and intimidate me with all the talk about "bypass caps" and "inductors" and such. I take that as an offense against my intelligence and as a low-brow tactic to try and get me to go away.
Since when is discussing passive electronic components a "low-brow tactic" to "intimidate"? That's about as basic as one can get when discussing electronics. It's like saying that someone who mentions oil viscosity and additive packages in a discussion about engines is trying to "intimidate" you!
bq. As for the specifics of why some products overclock better? I can't be technical about it because that's not the area of my expertise.
I can, because electonics is an area where I do have expertise.


bq. But I've gotten tired of wasting effort where it's obvious no progress will be made.
The reason why "no progress will be made" is because you decided that you would rather argue with me on a subject that you readily admit to having no expertise about -- instead of learning from me.

[fmaxwell]

bq. There are many manufactures on the market today that produce computer components that not only equal the quality of Apple’s hardware, but can also do better.
I am well aware of that. I work with individual boards that often cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. They have a level of quality which you are unlikely to ever see.
bq. but other manufactures such as Intel and Asus both put out high quality products that not only match Apple, but can also beat them.
I used to be a big Asus fan. I am not so impressed with their recent offerings and think that they have recently dropped below the level of the Intels, Apples, and even Gigabytes. But don't mistake a motherboard for a computer.

I'm sitting next to a 2.8ghz dual quad core Xeon Mac Pro. It's got 8GB of RAM, 2.3tb of hard drives (three drives), and is basically silent. It's because they engineered the entire computer, including the cooling, very well. I can take an Intel motherboard, slap it into a Thermaltake or Antec Case, put a big old honking power supply on it, load it up with RAM, CPU, and peripherals and it will boot and be fast. But I won't have fans spinning between 500 and 800RPM in a silent system. The system won't be elegant and almost devoid of cabling the way that a Mac Pro is.
bq. Do you really think that 4 PCIE is something special?
When that is the ONLY kind of expansion slot, yes. The Mac Pro does not use the older, outdated PCI slots that one finds on most motherboards.
bq. As for other hardware inside of an Apple, who makes it? Not Apple. They don’t make their RAM, they don’t make their processor, they don’t make their hard drive, and they don’t make their optical drives.
And Lotus uses an engine from Toyota designed by Yamaha in their Elise. They use a gearbox from a Celica. Lotus buys the tires from Yokohama. They buy the stereo system from Blaupunkt. They don't make their own air conditioning unit. But what does that have to do with the quality of the car as an engineered product? All major computer manufacturers buy components from other firms (rather than trying to be a jack of all trades). But do they buy good components? Do they buy the Optical drive made by Sony/Optiarc or the one made by Benq? Do they buy the fan with precision ball bearings or do they go cheap and get the ones with bushings? Do they pony up for the high-end SATA connectors or do they go for the cheapest? Do they cheap our on the case or go with something that is of the highest quality?

On the 2008 Mac Pro (the one I have and am familiar with, so I'll speak to it), did they just buy off-the-shelf RAM? No, they required massive heatsinks on full-buffered ECC (error correcting) DIMMs. Why? So that the system would not sound like one of those wind-tunnel-PCs from the mass market companies. Did they just screw the SATA drives to the case and run cables up to them? No. They created drive sleds and mating SATA connections that mated with the drives when the sleds were pushed in. Did they just run the fans full-speed? No. They used a microcontroller to vary the speeds to assure cooling while minimizing noise. Did they just slap their name on some Antec case? No. They created a case that is probably worth as much as your entire computer.
bq. And the funny part is, depending on when you buy your Apple computer; you can actually get different memory, hard drive, etc… they buy in bulk what ever they can get cheaper at the time.
Yep. Whatever is the cheapest. No concern for quality at all. Just like an Acer, right? Isn't it curious then, that they seem to be buying memory from such pricey firms as Crucial, Hynix, and Samsung? Isn't it surprising that they consistently have the higheset quality connectors throughout?

But since you won't take my word for it, and lack the expertise to recognize quality, here's some excerpts from the (non-Apple) press:

Infoworld, Apr. 13:
bq. "set a bar for build quality that nothing in its price class can touch" "Hard drives and PCI Express 2 expansion cards plug into Mac Pro the same way, by being inserted into backplane sockets. There are no loose hard drive cables in the system or in the drive trays, just SATA plug headers stuck right onto the logic board that mate directly with the drives. Inserting and removing drive trays requires no tools, and is so easy that you may, as I do, treat these as removable storage." "The bit that took my breath away, not only for its elegance but for its implications, is the processor tray. One lightweight tray holding the CPUs and RAM is the most easily removed module in this fully modular system. With this arrangement, it takes Apple no time at all to custom-build a Mac Pro to your specifications. It takes you no time at all to reprovision (i.e., swap trays among machines according to need) or effect repairs on-site without moving machines or pulling cables."
CNET 3/19/2009
bq. "For the CPUs and memory, if you'll recall the older Mac Pro, you'll remember its memory attached to a unique removable tray that fit into the motherboard like one large expansion card. Apple has taken that concept a step further in this new system, and now you can remove the entire CPU and memory portion of the motherboard via a simple tray design. As with the expansion card rod, this removable tray really only benefits those who will make frequent upgrades or repairs to the Mac Pro. And while you likely pay a premium for it, we don't blame Apple for flexing its design muscle and providing its customers with the sense that the Mac Pro is as much a unique design object as a productivity tool. With Windows PC makers largely reliant on industry standards for motherboards and other components, few, if any, of Apple's competitors are as well-positioned to make such dramatic innovations to their own desktops."


You went on to write:
bq. "If you really believe that there is nothing better then[sic] the hardware in an Apple,..."
Straw man -- I never made that claim. But compared to the consumer offerings from Dell, Gateway, Acer, HP/Compaq, etc., the Apple hardware is considerably better. I speak from experience. I own a Dell Server, an HP notebook, a Compaq notebook, a Dell desktop, a Mac Mini, a Mac Pro, and a white MacBook notebook. I also count four PC systems that I built in this room. At work, I am on my second Dell laptop. And that's just the curret generation stuff that's plugged in and either running or ready-to-run.

And before you go off on whether Dell bought a hard drive from the same company as Apple did, the hardware includes everything. It's every aspect from the quality of the USB connectors to the precision with which the case was made. It's the entire package.
bq. I work with a lot of electronic engineers and they just laugh when they see how narrow minded your out look on hardware is.
None of them read what I wrote. None of them laughed. You're just making up things now.

[rgreen4]

fmaxwell said:

I'm sitting next to a 2.8ghz dual quad core Xeon Mac Pro. It's got 8GB of RAM, 2.3tb of hard drives (three drives), and is basically silent. It's because they engineered the entire computer, including the cooling, very well. I can take an Intel motherboard, slap it into a Thermaltake or Antec Case, put a big old honking power supply on it, load it up with RAM, CPU, and peripherals and it will boot and be fast. But I won't have fans spinning between 500 and 800RPM in a silent system. The system won't be elegant and almost devoid of cabling the way that a Mac Pro is.

I can see you have not really used a quality Antec Case. I have several with 3 or 4 120mm thermal speed controlled fans and the HD's are mounted on isolation washers. They are also large roomy cases with space to 5 to 6 hard drives.

fmaxwell said:

bq. Do you really think that 4 PCIE is something special?
When that is the ONLY kind of expansion slot, yes. The Mac Pro does not use the older, outdated PCI slots that one finds on most motherboards.

It is interesting that Apple uses PCIe slots for video cards, most of the current (non-Apple) machines are using the faster PCIe2 x16 slots for the video cards, which replaced the older PCIe x16 slots. While there are a few PCIe video cards available (I found two with older ATI x1550 chips, they are far outclassed by the PCIe x16 and PCIe2 x16 cards.