[AiM92]

maco said:

What's wrong with printers in Ubuntu? As of 8.04 you can just plug in and after a second it'll pop up "Configured HP PSC 1610"...and that's all the work it takes.

HP happens to be one of a few companies providing Linux drivers for their printers. Unfortunately for me regarding Linux, I have a Lexmark printer and they don't provide a whole lot of support for Linux . The only remedy offered by various sources was to simply buy an HP printer, because a driver doesn't exist for my particular printer. I was going to dual boot anyway because I play games and some didn't play or look right under wine, so I've just been booting to XP to print.

[STMRadio]

I have a dual-boot with Dapper Drake and XP. I quit using the Linux when I got a Wacom Bamboo and found that Linux wasn't ready for it. I have monitored the linuxwacom project but so far the process of getting the tablet operational requires extreme patience and genius-level intelligence. After reading the instructions for over an hour (understanding only about half of it) I had a headache and had to quit. (see http://linuxwacom.so...php/howto/main) THIS IS NO WAY TO MAKE AN OS FOR GENERAL USE. Linux MUST have an easy way to add common hardware. No one should be forced to do that much work just to plug in a HID! (When they get this right, I'll upgrade.)

[poglatg]

I started using Dapper Drake, but ran into problems with networking (I think it was a hardware problem, not a software problem) so went back to XP. After having to nuke and re-pave XP four times, I went back to Intrebid Ibex and haven't looked back. I am looking forward to trying 9.04, but haven't got around to upgrading yet... I also use Kubuntu on an aged lappy that is mainly used as a DVD player.



I do plan on upgrading my hardware, which would include some large hdd, and I would probably dual-boot on that system, but so far Ubuntu hasn't had half the problems I encountered with XP.

[RedRat]

OK, I have been using Ubuntu for well over a year now and by and large am well satisfied with it. I am still on 8.04 and will probably upgrade to 9.04 or 9.10 sometimes later, letting the bugs get worked out. As I said, I am satisfied with the OS.

That being said, the software available does present some problems. As Linus Torvald said, people don't use the OS they use the Apps, and that is a key here. The apps available that I have used for graphics and multimedia (DigiKam and Kino) have a look and feel that they are only about 80-90% finished. Updates take quite a bit of time to reach the users, e.g., Kino, depending on your version, still does not support HD video from the newer HD cameras (although I hear that this is being rectified). This is understandable since these are open source and are constructed and maintained by volunteers, there is no giant software company backing these people. It is quite understandable that even for the most enthusiastic programmer, after a bit, you do get tired of looking at the code and tweaking the software. However, software apps coming from major software companies (Google, Apple, Adobe, and the rest) who make their programs available for free and the Linux world are damn fine programs. Something that open source programmer should aspire to.

I think this is the great dilemma of open source vs. commercial. Working for nothing and only getting a nice pat on the back for a beautiful program may be great at the beginning but it doesn't put food on the table or rook over your head. As a result, I think, with some exceptions, open source apps are going to be "also rans". While the OS is constantly being tweaked by the people at Canonical the apps can't keep up (for my version 8.04, I can't install the latest Kino version). So unless some compromise can be developed, Ubuntu will be getting close to the end of the line I am afraid. It's the apps, as Apple has long known.

[Evildave]

Artists usually don't make all that much money, and they often keep their artistic hobby despite the money rather than due to it.

- Linus Torvalds

[spaceboy909]

Evildave said:

Artists usually don't make all that much money, and they often keep their artistic hobby despite the money rather than due to it.
* Linus Torvalds

Very true, but the analogy doesn't work here. Artists are producing emotion in physical form, which is then enjoyed by the 'consumer' in a completely hands-off manner. As a rule of thumb, the consumer does not expect or demand that an artist change his art to fit the 'buyer', but rather they simply move on to a different artist that suits them better. There are modern exceptions to this rule, such as remixes and remakes, but most of these edits are driven heavily by the quest for more money, and a keen awareness of what people will spend their money on.

Computer programmers are not artists in any sense of the word. They are logical, pragmatic designers, with the most common objective being to serve the needs and desires of the consumer. They are also problem solvers; ridding the programs of bugs that interfere with the pragmatic objectives of the end user.


The lack of consumer sourced funding is the single biggest problem facing the Linux desktop. Microsoft built their desktop with billions of dollars. The only thing Linux has to build on is the spare time of volunteers, and the dream that the GPL will spread like a 'disease', thereby absorbing a large portion of the development community.

Money is still the largest driving factor behind practical, day to day change in our lives.
Message was edited by: spaceboy909 -- for spacing

[beast2k]

KDE default on Ubuntu? It's a logical step but Ubuntu has to many hardcore gnome zellots.

[nobodyimportant]

In a way, I agree. All Ubuntu can do at this point is Service Pack level stuff. Is that worth a new OS and iso file every six months? I suspect the Shuttleowrth will be thinking about this for a bit; his blog post on this subject was curious.
The repository concept is an issue - when you have such a large range of software in a single space, how do you keep it all updated? I agree with the Debian idea. You have different levels, and you can subscribe to what you wish as it comes. The minute Ubuntu makes the Debian levels GUI'd and easy to manage, the minute the hamster wheel suddenly becomes irrelevant.
Imagine:
LTS (Stable)
Next release (Testing)
Next release +1* (Unstable)
I'm not alone when I'm saying the hamster wheel is wearing thin. 9.04 was alright, but other than the update of the repositories, there wasn't much here to speak of, and it wasn't worth the huge downloads and angst (if you ran into that sort of thing). Maybe a stabilized, unchanging platform might drive the endless "Devs gotta shoot for the new release among the stars" complaint that usually comes with the inevitable question of paid and professional apps on Linux.
Debian 5.0 looks very appealing right now; it may take a bit more time to set up after the install, but that's time saved in the long run. KDE 4.2 in Stable? Count me in!

[JValade]

Bummer. I keep wanting to work for me, but there is always something that says Not Yet.

The last time I couldn;t get an "n" wifi card to work. With 9.04, the wireless keyboard is not recognized.

It seem it is always the obvious and little things that Ubuntu lets escape into release.

[crazy4laptops]

ubuntu just doesnt have the market share like windows... and ubutu has to become more favorable than windows to get ahold of more users

free does bring a good incentive, but since almost all of america buys name brand... and if name brand isnt shipping linux... then they are stuck

my vote is for ubuntu to take over the world =) (not yet, but soon)

[RedRat]

"Artists usually don't make all that much money, and they often keep their artistic hobby despite the money rather than due to it."


Well I would disagree with those who say programmers are not artists. Perhaps poor programmers are not artists but programmers who write good programs have some artistic streak. One reason MS and Apple are successful is that they employ graphic designers who specialize in user interfaces. Most programmers, I imagine, write something to solve one of their problems and then turn the app loose. I think this is why I sometimes feel that many Linux apps are in that 80-90% finsihed.



Linux for a long time was driven by the command line and not the GUI, what Apple and MS brought to the table was the GUI and they are very good at it. They are not so good at streamlining the underlying code perhaps, but there is no question that their GUIs are very good.





But to be a truly successful programmer you have to have a bit of the artist in you or at least a good understanding of the users of their software. Having visited the Linux/ubuntu newsgroups, where many programmers blog and attempt to help, it is pretty clear that they have little understanding of human nature. They might write crackerjack code, but the user interfaces leave a great deal to expect. From their comments, they certainly don't understand the average computer user. A bit too much disdain.

[spaceboy909]

RedRat said:

"Artists usually don't make all that much money, and they often keep their artistic hobby despite the money rather than due to it."

Well I would disagree with those who say programmers are not artists. Perhaps poor programmers are not artists but programmers who write good programs have some artistic streak. One reason MS and Apple are successful is that they employ graphic designers who specialize in user interfaces. Most programmers, I imagine, write something to solve one of their problems and then turn the app loose. I think this is why I sometimes feel that many Linux apps are in that 80-90% finsihed.

Linux for a long time was driven by the command line and not the GUI, what Apple and MS brought to the table was the GUI and they are very good at it. They are not so good at streamlining the underlying code perhaps, but there is no question that their GUIs are very good.



But to be a truly successful programmer you have to have a bit of the artist in you or at least a good understanding of the users of their software. Having visited the Linux/ubuntu newsgroups, where many programmers blog and attempt to help, it is pretty clear that they have little understanding of human nature. They might write crackerjack code, but the user interfaces leave a great deal to expect. From their comments, they certainly don't understand the average computer user. A bit too much disdain.
-----

I agree with you that many Linux apps have a very unfinished look and feel compared to Windows apps, and not just the GUI's, but the features as well. And I agree it is also very apparent that much of the Linux dev community don't 'get it', and many don't seem to care.

It's been quite a while since I've used KDE, so I don't know how similar it is to Gnome, but every time I open a Gnome app, I am instantly reminded by the look, feel, and features, that this is an amateur operation that does not have the consumer's ear.

But as far as Linus' artist analogy, the only place that I think it could apply would be for skin designers. GUI designers are still thinking in practical terms, or at least they should be. (I'm not trying to downplay the importance of visual appeal, ftr.)
Message was edited by: spaceboy909

[praxis22]

Far be it from me to teach your grandma to suck eggs, but I think you mistake the distro with the desktop, and the medium with the message.
What is the purpose behind and Open Source project? To build a better mousetrap? Or a more popular one?
Besides the obvious response of, "if you don't like it, fork." I can see no reason to follow the proprietary path at all. Up to point everyone is copying Xerox PARC anyway.
Beyond the exigencies of imitation, or a user land grab, what's wrong with "If you build it they will come" ? Surely that is the point of the distro, the very reason for it's existence.
Linux is a developers OS, you find one you like and you go with that, you don't like it, change.
I'm not scoffing, I just don't see the point of asking such a question. It's moot.

[RedRat]

"Far be it from me to
teach your grandma to suck eggs, but I think you mistake the distro
with the desktop, and the medium with the message.
What is the purpose behind and Open Source project? To build a better mousetrap? Or a more popular one?"

------------------------------------------------

Frankly I don't really care what the OS is, that is all below the hood so to speak. All I want is that when I turn the "car" on, it goes and gets me to where I want to go, with minimal fuss. I think what is being described here is from the viewpoint of an OS develope. The Desktop is not the OS, but the Desktop does drive the apps to some degree.

You pose an interesting question about the Open Source project. I would hope that it is to build good apps that do everything that users want to do. However, I think and as I state in my response above, the problem is that it is volunteer. It is a noble effort by those volunteering, but as anyone who has ever worked for a volunteer organization, the volunteers do tire and some becom frustrated. Volunteers come and go as they desire (they aren't being held there by a paycheck or contract). The weakness is that some of the Linux apps do feel only partially completed or only do very limited things. Building a better mousetrap, there is nothing really wrong with that, nor is it wrong to be popular. What is wrong with that? Nothing that I can see.



If you build a good app that does what everyone wants, you will be popular and you will have your better mousetrap. In the early days of PC software, many programmers did exactly that, e.g., the old WinZip for example on DOS/Windows machines, WinRAR, and there are others too. For practical purposes they were given away for free or shareware (though I doubt that the creators of these programs are living on the French Riveria from their profits). Certainly the creation of Linux by Torvalds is a good example of both a better mousetrap and popular. I admire that Linus has stuck with it and continues to drive and mold the development of the OS. But these are rare people, not all can do this due to lack money, time, or energy.



As to the comment that "build it and they will come" makes for a nice movie, but in real life I wouldn't hold my breath. If you are a developer, you can have that attitude but unless you have enormous wealth and resources I would make that a central theme of my career.

[llemm]

RedRat

Thats what is Distro for. To make sure a project/package will continue even the developer leaves the Project. And Because its open anyone who has the skills or who will want to try can continue. And open source is not centered to Programmer. There are also a lot of volunteers who contribute though they dont have any knowledge in Programming. And Distro like Ubuntu is not centered to the "Developer" bur rather Centered to the Community and a Programmer is just a part of that Wonderful community. It is not what "build it and they will come" scenario. There are Volunteers who documents, trace bugs, Helps you how to use a package /etc. and everything You could go the Ubuntu Forum Website and see How active and helpful the community.

[RedRat]

llemm said:

RedRat

Thats what is Distro for. To make sure a project/package will continue even the developer leaves the Project. And Because its open anyone who has the skills or who will want to try can continue. And open source is not centered to Programmer. There are also a lot of volunteers who contribute though they dont have any knowledge in Programming. And Distro like Ubuntu is not centered to the "Developer" bur rather Centered to the Community and a Programmer is just a part of that Wonderful community. It is not what "build it and they will come" scenario. There are Volunteers who documents, trace bugs, Helps you how to use a package /etc. and everything You could go the Ubuntu Forum Website and see How active and helpful the community.

Well if that is the case then Ubuntu perhaps is reaching the end of the line. As I have pointed out, I think most of the apps are half-finished or at best 80-90% completed. Some of these apps are quite a few years old, and still much to be done.



Again, I have no complaint with the OS, please try to understand that, my complaint is with the apps that are available. I really wonder how well the open source community is working? The good apps in Linux are certainly Open Office, it is polished and works and compares very well with MS Office. However, Open Office is done by Sun and its programmers. Certainly, since Sun is privately run, those programmers are not "donating their time for nothing", they are paid and this is why OO has a finished feel to it. Linux, since most of the improvements and updates are under the hood, so to speak, can putter along like this for quite a while. However, if the OS is to be something other than an intellectual exercise for a bunch of programmers, it is going to need applications that appeal to a large segment, and completed ones at that. Unless, the open source community gets on these apps that are already out there, and punches them up, people are going to avoid using Linux. Whether you or me like it or not, it is a numbers game.

[praxis22]

Redrat,
There are nicer, more complicated ways to say this, but in a word, "no"

Frankly speaking nobody cares if you or anyone else likes linux, this is not the point. Linux is a kernel, it is surrounded by other programs to make an OS, and yet more to make a desktop and/or a distro.

If you want better applications, write them. If you cannot, then go search freshmeat.net or sourcefourge, download the source, tweak to taste, build and install. This is the basic ethos of Linux. In fact there is a disto called Gentoo (www.gentoo.org) where you can build the O/S from a floppy disk, (though most download a larger file and start that way) The entire O/S is built by downloading source and then compiling it for your specific hardware and optimisations.

If none of this gets to you then I would point out one of the cardinal rules of friendship, namely "you shall not complain about the quality of the free beer in your friends fridge" It's impolite & selfish.

There is nothing wrong with the software developers, or the software, it looks the way it does because somebody wanted it to look like that or because it's "good enough" in line with one of the Open Source principles, "we believe in rough consesus and running code" This is not a numbers game, not a race, It's a group of people writing software in thier spare time, mostly unpaid, for the the fun of it and the recognition of thier peers. That's it. end of story.

Why is it like that? Read this:
adam.shand.net/iki/library/in[uthe[/u]beginningwasthecommandline/]

[RedRat]

praxis22 wrote:Redrat,
There are nicer, more complicated ways to say this, but in a word, "no"

Frankly speaking nobody cares if you or anyone else likes linux, this is not the point. Linux is a kernel, it is surrounded by other programs to make an OS, and yet more to make a desktop and/or a distro.


If you want better applications, write them. If you cannot, then go search freshmeat.net or sourcefourge, download the source, tweak to taste, build and install. This is the basic ethos of Linux. In fact there is a disto called Gentoo (www.gentoo.org) where you can build the O/S from a floppy disk, (though most download a larger file and start that way) The entire O/S is built by downloading source and then compiling it for your specific hardware and optimisations.


If none of this gets to you then I would point out one of the cardinal rules of friendship, namely "you shall not complain about the quality of the free beer in your friends fridge" It's impolite & selfish.


There is nothing wrong with the software developers, or the software, it looks the way it does because somebody wanted it to look like that or because it's "good enough" in line with one of the Open Source principles, "we believe in rough consesus and running code" This is not a numbers game, not a race, It's a group of people writing software in thier spare time, mostly unpaid, for the the fun of it and the recognition of thier peers. That's it. end of story.


Why is it like that? Read this:
adam.shand.net/iki/library/in[uthe[/u]beginningwasthecommandline/]

Whoa! Whoa there! First off the article that sparked this debate was the question that Ubuntu has reached the end of the line. That was the original topic here. You say to go to sourceforge or freshmeat and find an app and tweak it. I am not a prgrammer and neither are the vast majority of computer users. You are merely taking the easy way out. Very easy to say, take it or leave it because its free, that ends the debate and you pick up an leave. But this does not resolve the original question posed in the article and that is what I am trying to address: Has Ubuntu reached the end of the line. Well, if the developers take your attitude that they are picking up the their ball and leaving, then indeed the answer is Yes! This is not a viable option.



Your next to last paragraph sums up a loser mentality, certainly not a growth attitude both for the apps and OS side of things. What exactly is "rough consensus"? I suspect that it might be nothing more than a bunch of developers who are now suddenly tired or worse yet, developers who have reached the end of their abilities or energy. If Ubuntu is to continue and grow, it does need numbers, otherwise it will be shunted to the side as an also ran. Fine, if you are satisfied with what you got you now have that old "I'm alright Jack" attitude, not much is going to happen and Ubuntu and any other distro of Linux will indeed be at the end of the line.

[spaceboy909]

praxis22 said:

Redrat,

There are nicer, more complicated ways to say this, but in a word, "no"


Frankly speaking nobody cares if you or anyone else likes linux, this is not the point. Linux is a kernel, it is surrounded by other programs to make an OS, and yet more to make a desktop and/or a distro.




If you want better applications, write them. If you cannot, then go search freshmeat.net or sourcefourge, download the source, tweak to taste, build and install. This is the basic ethos of Linux. In fact there is a disto called Gentoo (www.gentoo.org) where you can build the O/S from a floppy disk, (though most download a larger file and start that way) The entire O/S is built by downloading source and then compiling it for your specific hardware and optimisations.




If none of this gets to you then I would point out one of the cardinal rules of friendship, namely "you shall not complain about the quality of the free beer in your friends fridge" It's impolite & selfish.




There is nothing wrong with the software developers, or the software, it looks the way it does because somebody wanted it to look like that or because it's "good enough" in line with one of the Open Source principles, "we believe in rough consesus and running code" This is not a numbers game, not a race, It's a group of people writing software in thier spare time, mostly unpaid, for the the fun of it and the recognition of thier peers. That's it. end of story.




Why is it like that? Read this:

adam.shand.net/iki/library/in[uthe[/u]beginningwasthecommandline/]

The very fact that Windows-like Linux desktops exist, and continue to evolve more in the Windows direction negates your assertion that 'nobody cares what we think'. And the idea that Linux devs as a group are only in it for casual fun and a slap on the back makes it sound more like a pizza party than a serious project.



One can go to any 'end-user-desktop' distro forum and quickly see that there's a lot more going on than an 'inside only' job, where outsiders are spit on if they dare to get too close. Quite the contrary, end user input is typically solicited on the company websites.



There are certainly some who do fall into that category, however, and they tend to give the Linux community a bad reputation, but while they usually have a big bark, I think they are small in number. Ubuntu, Mint, PCLinuxOS, Mandriva, Suse, etc., all seem to be aiming to not only provide the functionality and ease of use that Windows has, but ultimately to surpass it.



I'm a student of Linux development right now, and soon I hope to join the Ubuntu or Gnome team and do my part. I have no alterior motive to try and beat dissenting developers into submission; only to join the growing numbers already out there who clearly understand the usability factor of Windows, and have a desire to exceed it. I do hope, of course, that those devs who might be in the middle somewhere, will 'see the light', and begin to work on smoothing over many of the rough edges that typically give Linux its' 'unfinished' reputation.
Message was edited by: spaceboy909 --- forgot quote

[llemm]

RedRat

There are apllications that are seems unfinished or really unfinished, But the OpenSource is certainly not in the decline and actually there are more and more people who are Joining the bandwagon (I started to use Linux 4 years ago) those people jpining could either be as a Developer, Documenter, Bug Tracker, Tweaker, Marketer,Translator and /etc and ubuntu is the leader at this,. 4 years ago or more you would not see anything like this everything is done by the developer and his friends but now even a complete stranger can help them and they dont even have to know theyre true Identity. so I am 1000% to say that certainly/absolutely opensource is on the rampage and not on the decline. And if the apps that are you are using doesn't suit you find something else. In OpenSource you always have alternative or maybe you can give your opinion/problem to the developer or to the Distro itself in that way they can help you or somehow fix the problem that you encounter.

Sorry for the Bad English.