[PCWorld]

Post your comments for Why Linux Has No Future on Netbooks here

[bart6425]

I continue to be amazed about how many "experts" toot how easy linux is to install and use. Look, i've worked with the thing for 8 years now, and let me tell you this: whilst 8 years ago linux was a complete and utter pain, i mean making it display fonts properlly required brain surgery aptitudes, now it's simply a slightly less complete and utter pain (now the fonts are displayed ok, but you have drivers for nothing, and just making your printer work is a humiliating experience). So yes, if you compare today linux with 5-8 years ago linux, it's gotten somewhat better, but all in all, it's still an utter pain, and it will always be, for it is not created with the normal human beeing user in mind, but with the uber geek who actually enjoys tinkering, and not actually doing something with it's computer. So yes, DUH, windows is a better choiche for netbooks, as well as any other kinds of home computers. And no, i don't think Apple is better, simply because if I look right now on the apple web site, i see a mac book pro costs 2850 USD, and a Dell Studio XPS with the exact same configuration (ok, Dell actually has a bigger, higher quality screen) costs 2000 USD. And if I want to make that Dell cost 2800+ usd, i must throw in a 256 gb ssd drive, an extra gig of ram, and a BLU ray. So thank you Apple, im not gonna pay an extra 1000 usd just to see what smart animations the OS X gui has. And no thank you linux, i'd rather spend 400 bucks on Windows 7 so that I can spare myself a few dozens hours of tinckering so I can enable my wifi card.

[pjotr123]

Nonsense. Some Linux distributions, like Ubuntu, have become as easy as computing can be.
I have installed Ubuntu on the computers of several of my friends and family. Just to be rid of the constant requests for help I got, when they were using Windows.
Worked like a charm; they are all happy computer users now and don't need computer assistance anymore. Thank God. Ubuntu just works; no hassles, no maintenance, no security and performance issues.
Check this website:
http://ubuntutip.googlepages.com/

[bart6425]

Yes i tried both Ubuntu and Kubuntu quite a few times. I gave at Ubuntu 8, when my laptop almost melted, after shutting down the lid and putting it on my back. Stupid me I thought he'd go into hibernate mode like he does with all the windowses i had in the last 10 years. Well it didnt, and I found myslef with a burning backpack on the bus. Not to mention that the fans were always at full speed, again, as aposed to windows. Ofcourse there's a fix for each of these bugs, but why would i get 1000 external home made libraries and recombile some stuff too, when i can get that directlly with windows and i'm sure it works.

An beryl STILL has that bug that sometimes makes it not display the upper bar on all the windows. That's been going on for years, such that you have to restart X like an idiot to make it display correctlly again. Thats if you have a nvidia card, cause with an ati one good luck turning on the 3d acceleration under either of these two marvelous distros.



But hey, other than that, they're great.

[Evildave]

Quote

I gave at Ubuntu 8, when my laptop almost melted, after shutting down the lid and putting it on my back. Stupid me I thought he'd go into hibernate mode like he does with all the windowses i had in the last 10 years. Well it didnt, and I found myslef with a burning backpack on the bus ...

... and then there was that time I left the engine running on my car in the garage. That's why I was taking the bus, because the car overheated, too... and then it just wasn't my day, because I got hit by the bus because I crossed right in front of it when it started moving! How was I to know the driver couldn't see me down there???

Just like under Windoze, you set your preferences for what happens when you close the lid. Under Ubuntu, that's System->Preferences->Power Management.

[Evildave]

Quote

Thats if you have a nvidia card, cause with an ati one good luck turning on the 3d acceleration under either of these two marvelous distros.

Actually, ENVY was added to Ubuntu's software repositories, and it's pretty darned easy to configure NVidia or ATI with that.

Although realistically, if Linux comes pre-installed on a netbook, it will have all of the right drivers pre-installed as well. Not that many netbooks have premium chipsets with high-end 3D capabilities to start with (typically something like 'Intel Accelerated Graphics').

It's not like installing Shista/7 on an arbitrarily chosen PC is any better for driver support. You're almost guaranteed to do 'something extra' once the OS is installed, when you install the OS yourself.

[Evildave]

Micro$uck won't even publish their specs for the netbook until next year. If they stick to the notion of a gimped Windoze to run on the netbook, I think it will be hard to resist using a FULL version of Linux versus a crippled Windoze.

Then as a platform for running Micro$uck's other software, well tough poo. People who run OpenOffice on one of these 'underpowered' beauties will have a fully functional experience. Micro$uck would have to 'gimp' their M$ Orifice (and any other M$ junk) to fit into limited storage offered by inexpensive SSDs currently available.

No, the Micro$uck version of Netbooks will continue to be based on power-hungry mechanical hard drives and need extra power-consuming RAM to operate (or swap to the drive MORE, consuming EVEN MORE BATTERY POWER). Any way you slice it, Windoze 7 will eat up more resources than Linux, and have a shorter battery life, unless they severely gimp their OS down... while Linux still remains fully functional, with endless free updates, free support, etc. and a CHOICE, in case other distros offer you more than the default.

So the Micro$uck Netbook experience will most likely be: Long boot to Crippleware OS, Crippleware Software, and a fraction of the battery life... routine malware infections... all Micro$uck FEATURES!

As for SSD support, in another couple of years the SSDs will catch up with the (unrealistically high) demands of Micro$uck's OS, so then it stands a snowball's chance of being adopted by the vast herd of morons out there who like paying for what they could have for free.

Since it doesn't matter at all what OS you use to do a little web surfing, watch some video, play some flash games and check the email, and read/edit some documents, wise manufacturers will still opt for the OS and productivity suite they can put on the device FREE OF CHARGE to make it fully functional for their users. Even (as ASUS does) burnt into ROM as the BIOS.

That's right, even when you make the unwise choice to buy the Windoze PC, the EEE BOX (and soon on the EEE PC) have Linux (Splashtop) embedded anyway. Boots to useful applicationss in FIVE seconds.

Sure, you can get the hard drive model with half the battery life, gobble up gigabytes of your precious storage installing Micro$uck Windoze 7 on top of an OS that boots to fully functionally and into a browser/email in under 5 seconds.

The instant-on netbook market is the real boom, and Micro$uck won't be able to capture it with Windoze. A very functional 64MB core Linux could fit into inexpensive ROM/EEPROM, and then read even more goodies off the SSD/HDD.

How is a Micro$uck gonna make a ROM Windoze OS out of their bloated Windoze mess? Short answer, they can't. When I think of all those Windoze CE phones that took a minute to 'boot' when you flipped 'em open before you could make a call, I'd say Micro$uck will always be riding the shorter bus when it comes to all of these devices.

[JimH443]

Here is the bottom line as I see it:
All operating systems have a learning curve. Most people have already reached the summit of that curve with Windows and have no desire to climb that hill again.
Because of this, Windows will be the predominant OS on all non-Mac computers for a long time to come. Not because it is a superior product, but because of people's familiarity with it.

[waldojim]

Wow, there is a lot of hatred here.

Linux made the netbook possible more than just because of the cost. Linux was flexible enough to make netbooks usable. Look at the First netbook on the market - Asus EEEpc with a 2GB flash hard drive and 512mb of ram. That is hardly an ideal platform for windows. Linux is scalable enough to fit in those requirements and still be usable. That is where Linux excels, the off the wall application. Yes people found ways to install XP, and some claimed it was usable, though most said that was a worthless attempt.

Now that netbooks have gotten larger, and have more space, windows xp is more feasible, but do you really want 12GB of your 32Gb flash drive consumed by Windows 7? A typical Linux install can sit between 600MB and 2GB, bout the same as XP, though at 2Gb this includes Office, Skype, Instant messenger (covering all the basic services), FF, email, etc. Everything you need. No need to consume additional space after the OS install.

Remember folks, I am just claiming that Linux fits net books better than windows. None of that was a comment on usability.

As far as usability is concerned, remember this. When your notebook comes with windows, everything is already installed that you need to use the machine.
The same holds true for Linux based netbooks.

Installing software is easy, using one of two methods, using the included application manager and selecting an app, or downloading one and following instructions. IF you cannot read instructions then you probably need to walk away. NOTE: you do not have to comprehend them, just read, and follow. Most of these instructions say CLICK ME or the equivalent.

One last point. Best buy associates know NOTHING of what they are selling, I have heard them try and talk to people about them... it is a very sad experience. However, this limited knowledge is not limited to LINUX, they know NOTHING on average. I have actually seen better trained associates at wal-mart than my local best buy.

If Lenovo thinks that Windows 7 will kill Linux, good for them. Remember that IBM never thought you would own a PC. They were wrong once, lets laugh when they are wrong twice.

[bart6425]

I see you copied to perfection the art of using car metaphors to prove a point. Apple zealots also do that, when they want to explain why a 2500 usd notebook with dvd combo is better than a 2000 usd with blu ray, because it has a better built case.


You can adjust the hibernation setting under ubuntu. AFTER YOU INSTALL THE DRIVERS. If you can find them. And manage to recompile them. After beating the forums to understand why this dependency conflicts with the other one. Exactlly like it is under windows, right? And also the fact that menus disappear from windows is ofcourse a feature not a bug, stupid Aero interface for not beeing able to do the same. Sure, crap, the fact that after i spend to hours to install the print driver, it gets blocked by the security policies, that's also the stupid user's fault, dang, than God linux protects him from the evil printers, not like on stupid windows, where they just start running right away, God, ms must be insane. And good golly dang, why would i want to be able to use the wireless card right away, when i can also get the wrapper for the exact same driver, taking about 3 times as long to set it up, i mean where's the fun in that. I also love how the JVM takes about twice as much memory under fedora 9 than it gets under vista, even when running fully valid java apps, such as Glassfish server. Next you're gonna tell me how much better gimp is compared to ps4, open office vs ms office, and that I also dont really need to have my fonts rendered properlly, it's manlier if they're barely readable.

Edited by smax013 - No Personal Attacks

[JimH443]

bart6425 said:

Next you're gonna tell me how much better gimp is compared to ps4, open office vs ms office

When it comes to graphics and spreadsheets/databases, I am a "casual user" at best. I've tried the Windows version of both Gimp and OpenOffice. Both suit my meager needs quite well, and I have no intention of paying for software that is unable to perform the task any better.

[BGG001]

I recently tried out Ubuntu 9.04 and it was okay at best. It was a hassle to get my bluetooth keyboard and mouse working (tried several command line fixes and nothing worked, I actually had to boot in Windows 7, reconnect them, just to get them to work in Ubuntu), after that I messed around with the GUI, but found myself with nothing to do. Yes, the GNOME interface is very nice, but quite frankly, getting everything set up just to do nothing wasn't worth the time.

GIMP is a joke compared to PS, or even Paint.NET, and Open Office is available for Windows so why even bother?

As a side note, Ubuntu crashed 3 times. One time was a stress test, I was backing up a bunch of files, playing some music, and typing...one of the file transfers crashed. The other two times were just during regular use. Running a 1.5TB HDD with a 160GB HDD which are both in perfect functioning order. 4850 Radeon 512MB gfx, Intel C2Q Q6600 OC'd to 3.2GHz, 4GB of 800MHz RAM; there is no reason at all why anything should have been crashing.

[waldojim]

I would look at your overclock before blaming Linux, my C2Q 9450 is running at 3.6 and runs well, but at 3.7 it starts acting stupid in linux.


Next Gimp is MORE powerful than photoshop. No, it did not script EVERYTHING for you, but it CAN do more. learn patience.


Wireless drivers, in fact MOST driver problems can be laied at the feet of the people who made the hardware. Let me ask you, are you a programmer? NO!? well, crap, I am not, but someone out there did you the favour of writing the drivers for the hardware, and guess what, that is some geek sitting at his terminal. MS pays programmers to do this, So does Atheros, Intel, and Broadcom. Now of those, only Broadcom has been too cheap to support Linux, you know why they are in more notebooks than others?


There is one more point to the wireless bit, and that is the encryption, unfortunately Linux is a worldwide OS, meaning that US High-Encryption standards cannot be exported, and thus causing its own mess of problems.


Bluetooth is an add critter, I have gotten it to work, though I agree it is a PITA. That is one of the few things that still bother me. However, knowing the Linux group, that will change.

Edited by smax013 - No Personal Attacks

[Evildave]

Me, too. I would only further add that M$ Orifice adds NOTHING to the OpenOffice experience, aside from a high cost and enormous memory and hard disk footprint.

The GIMP is easy, works fine, loads for the first time in five seconds (instantly thereafter). I use it most of the time. The change in memory is is negligible when the GIMP loads.

I have PS4, and I almost never use it. It takes an hour or more to install off DVD, and it takes up to a minute to just to load empty. I never even see the 'Splash' for PS CS4 come up before the GIMP is done loading. Just to launch it, over 70MB of RAM 'disappears' from my computer.

For quick views, and small touch-ups, I can literally launch the GIMP on the file, be out of the program again before Adobe Photoshop C$4 even loads. That's pathetic beyond description, but par for Windoze software. It'll also cost you over 256MB to install just Adobe Photoshop CS4 (probably a lot more hard disk space and RAM by its self, since it's part of a CS package in my VM), which shouldn't be surprising, given the enrmous size of Adobe Acrobat Reader and the utterly insignificant task it's for (reading PDF files).

I wonder what they would bundle with Windoze 7 on the netbook? Oh wait! I know.... NOTHING! You won't be able to fit anything else. No software, no personal files, nothing. Silly me.

[Evildave]

Mac & Linux people use car (and other commonplace) metaphors with Windoze Luzers because they obviously don't understand computers... or they wouldn't be using Windoze.

QED.

Not that most people even understand cars.

[BGG001]

Check my overclock? I've been running this overclock since August with no issues on Windows Vista, Windows XP, and Windows 7, but as soon as I turn to Linux, it becomes a problem? That's physically impossible, unless Linux somehow changes my voltage settings.

I know how drivers work and that the company (in this case a linux user more than likely) wrote them so don't patronize me like I know absolutely nothing of what I'm talking about. I didn't need to install any drivers though, when did I ever speak of that? My bluetooth device was already detected upon installation fortunately and it should have been a simple connect and go situation but it wasn't; it was a difficult headache that I only did out of pure boredom and curiosity of the OS. Hopefully Linux will get this fixed, I'm not hoping the worst for them or anything, it's just why should I use something when there's something else that will work immediately with no command-line interface necessary? That will get my work done a lot quicker. Actually I take it back, I did install a driver from ATI and it worked flawlessly, excuse me.

Suggestion, have a useful argument rather than assuming and pulling stuff out of your ass to insult me about my knowledge.

[waldojim]

I was commenting on your argument about wireless cards, next time get things in the right context. And as I mentioned, you are not the only one with bluetooth problems. And since you seemed to be blaming Linux for not suppling drivers for the wireless cards, yes I do assume you are a moron. You can't have it both ways, either you understand that it is not the communities fault wireless drivers don't exist for that card, or you do, and are bitching to bitch.

And what I have found, is that sometime - just sometimes, windows can deal with timing problems a little better than Linux. No it is not changing your voltages, but I would bet 100:1 that if you drop your clock speeds, it stablizes right up. Linux just seems more dependant on correct timings than Windows.

Again - that is personal experience.

[Evildave]

Different drivers = different timings.

Your windoze drivers may have more wait-states to check if things have 'stabilized'.

Overclocking is a fool's hobby, IMHO. Risk losing work all the time to squeeze an extra FPS or so out of your FPS. Not worth it.

As a software developer, 'overclocking' is professional suicide. You never know for sure if it's a bug or if you've just gone down the rabbit hole for a few wasted hours/days due to instability issues present only in your 'overclocked' machine.

And of course, when the weather warms up a bit, there's the very real possibility you'll cook some chips and let the magic smoke out.

You'll get all of the 'overclocked' performance and more over Windoze by running the computer at its recommended clock/voltage settings under Linux. Under 99+% of conditions not involving a benchmark program, you will lose no discernible performance in windoze, either.

[BGG001]

You were commenting on my argument for wireless drivers? reread my post(s), I mention nothing of wireless, I'm using ethernet, so since you apparently can't read and comprehend at the same time or altogether, what does that make you?

[waldojim]

"why would i want to be
able to use the wireless card right away, when i can also get the
wrapper for the exact same driver, taking about 3 times as long to set
it up, i mean where's the fun in that."

That was it, now I am trying to locate the reason for that comment, but I am comming up blank... so aparently you just tossed that out there for the sake of doing so.
"but why would i get 1000 external home made libraries and recombile some stuff too"

"the fact that after i spend to hours to install the print driver"

More examples of you blaming the LInux community for drivers that they do not controll... The first one up there is in reference to the ACPI features which are broken on many motherboards due to the manufacturers not adhearing to standards.



The second one is just laughable for every owner of an HP printer when Vista launched.
Message was edited by: waldojim damn that broken quote system