I wasn't totally impressed with the Consumer Reports study on refill inks either, because it likewise lacked comparing the very best refill inks with the OEMs. Both reports only tell part of the story of refills vs OEM inks. CR's finding that refills don't save $ was also way off the mark (PCW's imperfect study was better). I see it that both were very scientific only from one side. Both's selection of refill inks killed both articles from being truly outstanding, and even more scientific. They could have shown even more than they did how refill inks vary one from another. The OEMs were given their best shot in both studies while refills as a total group were accidentally limited, selected too randomly, using mainly most popular sources and failing to ferret out the very best as well.

I am not arguing about cars here anymore...but about WASTE and GREED and how they go together to an end that I hope does not occur for our species. I agree that it is 'the Capitalist way" and this has produced the greatest technological country in the world. I am green in more ways than one. I even disagree with caps and taxes on companies like Exxon/Mobil for making "too much money". It costs a fortune to find today's fossil fuels to feed our addiction. However, we're (read humans in general) wasting what resources this planet has all for making a very small percent of humans VERY rich or even richer. It's no longer the "finders keepers" or "whoever has the most" mentality that cuts it today. We are ALL responsible, every one of us, to ensure that our species persists beyond the next few generations. If not...Mother Nature will start again and to quote a man just passed..."shake us off like a bad case of fleas." We are the first species that possess the ability to arrest its own demise and the majority of us don't care. Just like I don't care about your truck or my car...in the end they are both ephemeral, just like all human life..for now. We exist for an instant.

As far as the F1 thing...its ability to sponsor what is a billion dollar a year SPORT is a direct reflection of its income...which is in question not just in this arena, but worldwide and its practices for getting said income at the expense of consumers hard earned money and environmental indifference. That is what I call into question...at what expense?

How is the one time use house analogy any different than a one time use inkjet cartridge? They are the same wasteful way of thinking. It would be TERRIFIC if you were a home builder. Not so if you couldn't afford a brand new home. Besides...natural processes would break down my house in about 100 years...plastics last almost forever.

As far as the new technologies from OEM...they simply repackage and re label the same technology to keep the consumers buying more and "the latest". It is an age old business practice. They haven't changed their PATENTED printheads or tank systems. That's why they're patented. If OEM actually came out with something new...that would be patented too. Oh sorry...they patented the "death chip" to try to force a one time only use. Thank goodness we're a smart bunch. Yes they have shareholders to appease, but again...at what expense? My portfolio is more diverse in "green" chips than blue for that very reason.

I am all for making money which is a tool needed today to survive and get things done...but how much and at what expense has to start to be measured in the equations as well or we are all doomed.

I may be outing myself as a geek here...but Gene Roddenberry was on to something with his "morality plays" and views of the future. It has been proven the science fiction often becomes science fact. I fear as a species we are going to be hard pressed to outlast cockroaches unless we fundamentally change the way we live...all 6.5 billion of us.

I agree...we can see each others points of view even if we don't see it the same. As one human to another, thank you for recycling and helping our future. That is all I can do with the time I am alive...try to make a difference for our future...for everyone's and everything's future.

Thanks and have a good Fourth of July.

Thanks for the interest. It is important as beatkat stated. I am passionate about our future. Where technology and humanity take us is up to us all and through the interent, forums, blogs and even YouTube we can all have a voice. Happy Fouth of July!

Hey SPIKEMAN, I have an HP C5180 All-in-One with six (6) cartridges. The 5 color cartridges are $9.95 ea. and the Black one is $16.95 ( I think). I usually get a discount of sorts from Staples, as they give you credit for your old cartridges so I haven't really tried third party ink. Yeah, everybody does have their opinion, and they usually have genuine reasons for those opinions for the most part. Personally, I enjoy being around an opinionated bunch, makes for some interesting reading at times. Getting back to what you said about the cartridges, you make a good point, as the cartridges have really gotten sophisticated as has previously been pointed out. To be honest, I would like to see at least six independent tests by six different testing agencies in order to get a more comprehensive testing result. coastie

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eMachines T5212.... Intel Pentium D 945 3.4Ghz..... evga 8600 GT 256 Mb PCI-E video card..... Realtec HD audio......2 Gb 533 Mhz DDR2 memory..... Lite on CD RW; DVD +R / RW DL optical drive...... Windows XP MCE 2005....... Antec Basiq 500w PSU......200 Gb PATA HDD

Hi Coastie65

Tell Me about it! I have the Epson r300 which has 6 cart. @ approx $15.00 each! I can't afford to use the OEM ink! Have to use bulk to really save a lot! With My CISS unit, I save probably 90% of the ink cost! Each 8 oz of color or black cost 10 bucks! With shipping a total of approx $70.00 ! This is 20 buck less than one set of cartridges! To this time, have found NO problem with this ink! NO cloggs, NO fading, NOTHING! Just keep the tanks filled as needed, (don't let them get below 1/4) . If they should run out, all the priming etc has to be done all over again and probably some resealing cart. seats etc.

I did an installation on my CISS unit which works perfectly with no shags or drapes to the feed tubes. Was dealing with a China Mfg Co at time of inst. Showed them the photos and they ask if they could use them in their borchures! Guess I should have ask for some sort of payment but I didn't. They looked nice in their adds.

I am mostly familiar with Epson printers as that is what I have now and haven't had the need to get any other type.

I hope no one gets offended if they try something I mention and it don't work for them! I am a type that if I want something and it looks like it will do what I need, I'll find a way to get it to work! This is and has been my position all My life! When I want a photo that is in a different format than what I have, usually I can find a way to get it! Lots of friends send emails with all kinds of formats! NO ONE CAN HAVE ALL THE FORMATS OUT THERE!. I like to try different types of photos with this ink which has worked extremely well so far. Have found some photos will not come out with the proper colors no matter what you do! I have tried to rework them in Adobe, still some just don't have the proper dpi and shades to produce a good print!

Getting back to the catridges, I have tried several manufacturs types and have quite a lot of info on what works and don't work! (Epson type) . There is a valve in the output of each color on the cartridge which is closed until installed! The sealing rings are sometimes a part of the valve, some have tiny round head pins that push up when installed to open the orfice. Just above these valve feeds is a restrictor which caused the problems which I always found! Somehow they stop the flow of ink. With my tester I designed I can tell which works and which don't! Lots of head cleaning is done unnessarily when this occurs. Sometimes it will allow just enough ink to be drawn into the chamber to work for a few lines and then stops again. With My CISS unit, have NEVER had this to happen!

Thanks for the feedback . I enjoy all types of opinions however good or bad, just use a filter and everything comes out great! Have a wonderful day, its hot here in Vegas, was 110 in front of my bedroom window in the shade! Supposed to get hotter tomorrow!

SPIKEMAN

Hey SPIKEMAN, You know one thing that was never mentioned and it is a very important part of the manufacturing process. That is Q&A. In mass manufacturing, not everything comes off at 100% and it is the job of a good Q&A program to stay on top of what's coming off the line. I just recently bought a 42" HDTV. The first one they delivered was unpacked, setup, and plugged in. When they hit the switch........nothing. They ended up unceremoniously dumping the thing back in the box and taking it back. They brought another one out that did work. That first one should never have cleared Q&A, but did. What I'm saying is, before you trash the product, you might want to check and see if there have been a lot of complaints, or if a lot of people have been satisfied with the product. If the latter, then something might have slipped through Q&A.

Been a while since I've enjoyed the Vegas heat. Now that I got a new digital camera, a run through Valley of Fire State Park, would be nice place to get some pics. Got some shots from there with an old clunker camera. Also went down to Goodsprings to see the old Pioneer Saloon there. I think the Casinos have figured a way to turn up the heat to keep the people inside. coastie

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eMachines T5212.... Intel Pentium D 945 3.4Ghz..... evga 8600 GT 256 Mb PCI-E video card..... Realtec HD audio......2 Gb 533 Mhz DDR2 memory..... Lite on CD RW; DVD +R / RW DL optical drive...... Windows XP MCE 2005....... Antec Basiq 500w PSU......200 Gb PATA HDD

In the beginning.

I had an Amiga computer back in 1987 so I wanted to print color photos. Dot-Matrix ruled the day with a few people lusting for expensive laser printers. I had a choice of an expensive Xerox inkjet, or an expensive HP Paintjet. I purchased the HP Painjet for $1,120, and the Paintjet also had to use an expensive clay coated paper which prevented bleeding and fading. There was a significant difference between high quality HP coated paper and other papers. I used the Paintjet for at least 10 years before HP stopped making the ink. I replaced the Paintjet with a HP 952C for $365 which is also now near 10 years old. The HP 952C can use many different papers, but the ink is expensive. For me the print quality is always very high with HP ink since 1987. Two printers, 20 years, and zero failures is my HP inkjet experience, I treat my printer like a precision instrument which it is because high quality print means everything has to work together perfectly. Today manufacturers give away a cheap printer and charge you for expensive ink, but consumers don't really show up to ask for expensive printers with cheap ink do they? I read recently that Kodak has released its new printers with less expensive ink so maybe you should reward a company that is doing what you asked for. I recycle all of my ink cartridges. The viscosity and pigment would logically both make a difference in print performance. The oil to ink comparison does make sense on some levels. Too thin or too thick oil makes all the difference. The different additives that make an oil perform different too. But the most important thing is oil is a SAE standard to buy the correct oil for your engine. Any oil that meets the standard can be used, but the formula will be different. This is where printers are different because there is no ink standard. The manufacturers all use proprietary technology to maintain quality and keep the customers coming back for more ink. Until there is an ink standard I will continue to use the manufacturer recommended ink for my printer just like I use the proper oil in my car.

BARTBY,

This is a great forum, lots of info mostly correct. I agree, most of the mfg. is done without too much quality control. Would love to drop in on some of the big plants where there is a production line running and have a chance to inspect the quality of the workmanship! I have worked on Prod. lines and know some about the process. The line must run regardless! This is a waste of time, material, workmanship, money and who knows what else? I ask the Lead man about a bad part that came down the line without half the parts and not formed correctly, what was going to be done with the bad parts, Trash, lots of money lost there!

With the ink situation, most of the bad carts should be returned to place of purchase! Let them eat the bad ones! On my printers, I have proven which is bad when I was useing them!

More later. Happy 4th

SPIKEMAN