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23 Replies Last post: Jul 26, 2008 1:11 PM by sabine   Go to original post 1 2 Previous Next
Click to view sehku17's profile New Member 6 posts since
Jul 8, 2008
15. Jul 12, 2008 9:32 PM in response to: PinHead
Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Beta: An Agile Upgrade

I'm sorry, but this position is far to biased to ignore, and I would like to inform you why you are wrong.


First of all, Linux distros aren't Linux "clones," they are indivdual interfaces for the same kernel. Anything that will run on one will run on all. Secondly, plug and play devices work fine, even quicker, with generic drivers for most things. I will concede that there is a lack of drivers in the Linux kernel though, and that many wireless cards, etc. don't work. I would like to point out, though, that this is not linux's fault. The manufacturers have chosen to produce windows drivers, and have chosen not to produce linux drivers. All of the drivers int the Linux kernel are contributed by linux programmers, and they simply do not have the number of people and amount of resources to write a driver for every single hardware device. And even if they do, if every driver is included in the kernel, it will be so bloated it is almost as slow as windows.


"...Linux, but my god it's so primitive..." I'm sorry, WHAT!? Linux is not primitive, and if you took the time to learn the commands and spent 5 minutes reading documentation, you would be able to use the command line to accomplish any task you could ever need. The problem you have is that it's not the same as DOS/Windows, and you are used to DOS/Windows. But of course it's not the same, if it was the same it couldn't be better. And, it's not hard to learn. If you need help with anything with it, there's also documentation and support which is more than I can say for windows. In windows if something malfunctions, you have /? and help _ to help you, in linux you have man _, a full manual for every single command telling in detail how to do everything that you can do with a program, and a way to get in touch with the author of the program if something malfunctions.


Lastly, " I fear that as an open source environment Linux will always be catching up..." is totally inaccurate. Linux has never been catching up. It has always been at the forefront of innovation. Windows still hasn't caught up to half the things the original UNIX could do. Is there a software repository or good, stable update system in Windows? No. Are there virtual workspaces in Windows? No. In Windows, is there even something as simple as listing the type of hardware detected like lshw is in Linux? No. Windows is a horrible OS, with nothing on Linux but publicity.


I have nothing against your position, if you have legitimate reasons and research. But I do ask for an objective comparision if you are trying to convince me of a word you say. I look forward to hearing your response.

Click to view rgreen4's profile Old Hand 3,644 posts since
Oct 22, 2006
16. Jul 12, 2008 11:04 PM in response to: sehku17
Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Beta: An Agile Upgrade
That does not change the fact that the various Linux distros have been oversold and underdelivered. Starting a year ago there was a steady drumbeat of how great Linux was, and then a following stream of dissapointed people who attempted to use it.

Yes, it may all be the same kernel, but the intefaces all have different and confusing terminology. Linux users have made their point loud and clear of how they disdain "proprietary" drivers and even to the point of making their use more difficult and then complain that manufacturers don't support them?

One thing that is not mentioned is that the foundation of Linux, GNU is only a few years younger than DOS, which was released in 1981 (while GNU was released in 1983), and Linux itself is only a few years younger than Windows which was released in 1985 (Linux released in 1991).

Linux seems to work well in areas that have significant IT support, but in the consumer area, only if you happen to have the equipment that happens to be widely supported. Then we have the comment that there is a large number of supporters on the forums. Yet, when I posted a question about wireless on the Ubuntu section of the Linux forum, I received exactly one response in three weeks. That was by another user who had the same problem and had received information, later confirmed, that our wireless chips were a problem, but so were many others. The solution was to buy an add in wireless connector and hope that it was supported. That's not a solution. My solution was to go back to XP.

If you are using a machine connected to the internet though a connection via ethernet, and do not need to read/write an files with a Windows machine, then you have an easier time getting it to work. If you want it to interface with currently existing windows based machines it becomes difficult and if you want to use wireless with that, good luck.

As to Linux distros being primitive, it is. Maybe not in what it is capable of doing, but in trying to install things. I can download an application in Windows, double-click it and it will install because of the Window's installer. Try that in Linux and it just sits there. You have to find the application in a "package" that your flavor of Linux supports and bring it down.

If all those who support Linux would get together and write a manual for Linux in understandable terms, and get all the developers of the 31 flavors of Linux to use common terminology and spend more time solving the lack of drivers rather than accentuating the Linux differences, it may have a better chance. You make the comment that the various distros differ only in their interface, you need to point that the interface which you are referring to is the internal interface to the kernel as well as the user interface. That is why different distros not only look different, but behave differently as to installing items.

And then there are all the applications that are not supported in Linux. Of course the refrain is that there are applications that do the same jobs. But, not interact with the primary ones like Citrix, which is used in business, not some terminal emulators used to interface with mainfram computers. Then the linux horde crys "who uses mainframes anymore" - most of the Fortune 500. If you want someone to shift to your OS, you need to support their apps.

In the time that the Open Source committee has been working on this (25 years) they have actually lost market share to the hated Microsoft. After all, in 1983 there were questions about whether MS-DOS would have a majority market share. Then they worked with major CP/M applications to finish the porting of those apps from CP/M to DOS, plus all the new DOS apps and the rest is history.


I get the feelings that despite their statements, the Linux developers do not actually want to improve their market share. They are perfectly happy have the small pond, better to be a large fish in a small pond, rather than a small fish in a large pond.


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Click to view PinHead's profile New Member 4 posts since
Sep 8, 2006
17. Jul 13, 2008 1:53 AM in response to: sehku17
Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Beta: An Agile Upgrade

sehku17: Opinion based on personal experience can not by definition be biased. Prejudice is defined as: "...an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge." My position is preliminary (subject to change) and arrived at only after finding extreme difficulty in working with and learning the Linux OS; which constitutes just grounds and sufficient knowledge of those problems if not the software.

Please forgive me for my nomenclatorial and taxonomic gaffe in referring to "distros" as "clones". "Distros" I presume is a contraction of "distribution" while a clone is defined as: "...one that appears to be a copy of an original form : DUPLICATE." I also refer to people serving coffee at Starbucks as "bartenders" rather than the pretentious Italian word "barista," because I am a simple man not given to proprietary pretensions on behalf of coffee vendors shilling $5 cups of coffee.

Linux or the Ubuntu distro (cool, a new bit of jargon) is primitive in that it lacks Windows sophistication and nearly universal compatibility with available hardware. In this regard Linux is primitive, as it is in the areas of support and uniformity. I read an instruction on the Ubuntu site on how to install ndiswrapper all the way through to the point where it mentioned that the steps were obsolete for the version I was using! No reference to how it works in version 8.04. I downloaded instructions from several sites as rcommended by Ubuntu's own support page and none of the instructions were either relative or effective. Truth is that with Windows I can download updated drivers for any available networking chipset (any device actually) and have success within two minutes - from anywhere in the world. In some cases Windows will search for an updated driver and install it for me. I can even choose to run an older program in a earlier compatibility mode, say Windows 95.

I did mention that my problem is unfamiliarity with Linux commands and syntax, and further that I plan to continue learing and experimenting with Ubuntu. Yet the lack of a concise source of current and relative information is detrimental to learning the OS, as is conflicting instructions.

IMHO, Linux is limited by the Tower of Babble phenomen, where too many cooks are spoiling the broth. It suffers from lack of an integrated single source development team, where conventions are adhered to and focused on operability and ease of use.

The legend of Windows instability and lack of support is vastly overstated. For example: I installed a Symantec product, GoBack, that was not compatible with SATA drives especially in a striping mode, although such incompatibility was not mentioned. It mangled my drive's FAT so that the drive was unreadable preventing system boot. I could not repair it, as the SATA chipset driver was not in BIOS and had to be present for the drive to be read, and the repair console does not allow insertion of a driver when booting in safe mode, or from a bootable utility disk. The only quick solution was a data recovery service - cost $500 - $1,000. So, instead I typed "disk recovery" into search on another Windows computer, and had four programs downloaded in two hours. Raid Reconstructor recovered my files after transferring the drives to a working computer, and an hour of fiddling arround with the intuitive program at a cost of around $150. With Windows one can type any problem or error message into any search engine and have several solutions available, including patches, registry tweaks, utilities, driver updates and complete discussions.

All the Linux functions you mention are available with add-ons and shareware. One doesnt need "lshw" to install WIndows (although the System control panel does the same thing and allows driver updates and harware control once installed) because Windows automatically detects and installs drivers or asks for drivers at installation. Microsoft provides an update service that automatically updates the OS and maintains security patches, and a searchable knowledge base that is extensive. I can and have solved any Windows problem within minutes, all from my desktop (I do have four computers to run searches and download files with). Windows does not need a software repository simply because certified software is universally available online, in every computer store, wholesale outlet, office supply store, department store, and even some grocery stores. Freeware and shareware is available, as are commercial products.

Finally, Linux is innovative in everything but marketability, operability and compatibility. Linux will not gain on Windows until it becomes a true load and play OS that has Windows ease of use. My entire point is that I would like to see that happen - I am not against Linux no matter the flavor of the distro - I want to see it succeed.


Click to view rgreen4's profile Old Hand 3,644 posts since
Oct 22, 2006
18. Jul 13, 2008 7:12 AM in response to: PinHead
Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Beta: An Agile Upgrade
PinHead wrote:

Finally, Linux is innovative in everything but marketability, operability and compatibility.


I think you have summed up in one simple sentence what everyone who is not a techie has discovered about Linux when they attempt to use it on more than a simple stand alone scale.


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Click to view sehku17's profile New Member 6 posts since
Jul 8, 2008
19. Jul 13, 2008 9:21 AM in response to: rgreen4
Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Beta: An Agile Upgrade

(This is really a response to all that responded to my original argument)


I think that the issues you have are because you cannot do evertything in the same way that you do in Windows from within Linux. However, that functionality still exists. To get a driver in Windows you have to do a search, download it and install it. In Linux, you have to do a search, download, and install it. The only difference is that installing it takes typing "make" instead of double-clicking.

Linux expects you to not be an idiot. It expects you to do a little research to figure out how to do the more advanced functions. In Windows, those functions don't even exist.

I have never had an issue with using different packages for different distros, all you have to do is compile it from source, and it runs fine on any of them.

You are correct that GNU and Linux have been around for quite a while. But losing market share is depending on the niche in the market that you look at. Desktops have used Windows, and a lot of that was the hardware manufacturer's decision to support it. The server market share is about 70% UNIX/Linux. (Source: IDC). And that is primarily because of its functionality, stability, and security.

I suppose that to some exent it's personal preference what to use, but Windows has never held a candle to Linux as far as I'm concerned.

I respect your decision to use Windows, despite it's many flaws, but after using Linux for a couple of years, and learning how to use it properly, I can never imagine going back. (And I had used Windows since Windows 95 came out, prior to switching for Linux during the XP years).


--Dan Mazzei, Linux user since 2005

Click to view PinHead's profile New Member 4 posts since
Sep 8, 2006
20. Jul 13, 2008 3:52 PM in response to: sehku17
Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Beta: An Agile Upgrade
sehkut17: "Linux expects you to not be an idiot. It expects you to do a little
research to figure out how to do the more advanced functions."

Now, with that statement I begin to understand the deeper import underlying the arguments of the Linux aficionado. What we have here is a religious orthodoxy, a primal group separation between the elite - the Linux priestly class versus the rest of us in the laity. Those who are not initiated into the mysteries of Linux, are considered profane dolts worshiping a flase theology. This psychological malady is a natural predisposition of the human psyche, as formerly evidenced in the imagined superiority of Apple Macintosh devotees versus PC plodders. The difference between the perfection of typing "make" versus double clicking, is the same as knowing the meaning of "Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi," versus, "Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world."


Therefore, I issue a pronuncimento: That Linux will remain a niche product due to the attitude of exclusivity among its devotees that limits its practicality.

Linux never will become a mainstream product, simply because the vast majority of people use the computer as a tool, and lack the time or desire to master the arcana of Linux. Further discussion is futile. I will use my Ubuntu disk as a coaster for coffee mugs, a function not requiring compilation. At least, I tried.

Click to view MrOleScott's profile New Member 2 posts since
Feb 15, 2007
21. Jul 16, 2008 12:04 AM in response to: PCWorld
Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Beta: An Agile Upgrade
I had tried UBUNTU 7.04 for PC in 2007. I had some REAL bad issues with it. It was not compatible with my Modem & when I un-installed it it seized up my PC.
What I'm trying to say is move carefully with it & make sure you have Backed-up your system !!!!
Click to view KarlT's profile New Member 1 posts since
Jul 16, 2008
22. Jul 16, 2008 9:12 AM in response to: PCWorld
Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Beta: An Agile Upgrade
I found Hardy Heron, like the rest of the Ubuntu series since 6.04, to be less than satisfactory because of the difficulty in getting streaming media to work. For that reason, I have been using PCLinuxOS for all my online work since March of 2006 rather than Ubuntu.


It was mentioned above that there needs to be a true "load and play" Linux. PCLinuxOS is that, for all practical purposes (IMHO). It does not require all the messing around that Ubuntu does, just to get basic things like streaming media to work. I know a long time Linux user who was vastly surprised when I gave him the link to the National Zoo Panda Cams, and told him there was audio on the archieved clips . . . he had never heard it! But then, he does not use PCLinuxOS as his basic Linux distro.

Interestingly, there is an aritcle in the August 2008 issue of PCWorld concerning Hardy Heron and Fedora, yet despite this seeming interest in Linux by PCWorld, the printer reviews never mention whether Linux drivers are available for them. I have repeatedly sent both emails and snail mail letters to the editors, as well as the Test Center, commenting about this problem, and yet nobody at PCWorld has ever responded to these communications. For the record, HP is the only printer manufacturer I know of that has a fairly good listing of Linux drivers for their printers, and they do it through SourceForge rather than through their own site.


KarlT

Click to view sabine's profile New Member 1 posts since
Jul 26, 2008
23. Jul 26, 2008 1:11 PM in response to: PCWorld
Re: Ubuntu 8.04 Beta: An Agile Upgrade

Hi,

I have been using the new Ubuntu 8,04 now for a few months, first as a dual-boot, now as main operating system.

After the initial learning period, and despite the occasional glitches, it is a super operating system, and I am thrilled. Most things just work, even my windows did not crash like before when it ran under linux (don't know why). I would also like to point out that I am neither young nor a computer geek. I also noticed ongoing updates and improvements occurring at a very fast pace. There is far less maintenance to be performed and the system appears very stable (no crashes). I also like the concept of cross-platform operability, all operating systems should have these options. There is also more and more driver software coming along. Currently my built-in webcam does not yet work (needs driver?), but I am also enjoying a system that "just works".

Overall I am very pleased, despite some minor shortcomings, and I can fully recommend this OS.

Sabine

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