PC World Community: Purchasing New Desktop

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10 Replies Last post: Nov 27, 2007 4:20 PM by TechyGuy

fluidwebsitedesign

4 posts since
Nov 25, 2007

Nov 25, 2007 10:50 PM

Purchasing New Desktop - Need Advice

I'm a small website design startup business and am in the market for a new, high performance desktop and am having the hardest time deciding where to buy it from. I really could use some advice from other computer experts.

Because Windows Vista uses so much memory, and the RAM ceiling is 4GB for Dell and HP brands, I've decided to go with Windows XP Pro. Basically I need a high performance computer because I run memory-intensive apps daily, like Photoshop, Outlook, Dreamweaver, Accounting 2007, Excel and IE7.

I'm looking for a computer that can run quickly, and as a result, the following are essentials that I need:

* Windows XP Pro

* Quad Core processor

* 4GB RAM

* RAID (2x500GB) - for backup purposes

I'm running into a problem because Dell doesn't provide a desktop with all of this (the best I could find was the XPS 720 but the OS was Media Center 2005) and HP doesn't sell XP Pro on desktops except for the business ones (which are 10-20% more than Home and Home Office desktops).

I've heard of CyberPowerPC.com and love their config options, but I've also heard really bad reviews about them - does anyone have advice on that?

Any help/advice at all is greatly appreciated - thanks!!

smax013

3,752 posts since
Jan 28, 2007

1. Nov 25, 2007 11:09 PM

in response to: fluidwebsitedesign

Re: Purchasing New Desktop - Need Advice

fluidwebsitedesign wrote:
I'm a small website design startup business and am in the market for a new, high performance desktop and am having the hardest time deciding where to buy it from. I really could use some advice from other computer experts.

I'm looking for a computer that can run quickly, and as a result, the following are essentials that I need:

* Windows XP Pro

* Quad Core processor

* 4GB RAM

* RAID (2x500GB) - for backup purposes

I've heard of CyberPowerPC.com and love their config options, but I've also heard really bad reviews about them - does anyone have advice on that?

Any help/advice at all is greatly appreciated - thanks!!

How comfortable are you with mucking around inside a computer? Would you be confortable building your own computer? You could EASILY get what you want if you built it. My recent computer build basically meets all your requirements other than the quad core processor (but that is only because I chose not to get a quad core processor)...I have XP Pro on it (I will have a seperate drive with Vista Home Premium as well), 4 gb of RAM, and it has the ability to support two different RAID arrays on the motherboard by way of 6 plus 2 SATA ports.

Baring that, you could look at Gateway. Their FX530 series can be equipped with a Quad core processor and can be custom configured with XP Pro. The only thing that I could not locate is if you can do RAID off the motherboard or not. I did not see any Quad core options from Dell in the consumer line that allowed for XP Pro. And I have yet to find any XP configured computers from HP in their consumer line. As you noted, you can easily go to the business or small business lines in Dell or HP and get XP.

Your other option would be to get a computer from Dell or HP that fits your requirements OTHER than haivng Vista instead of XP...and then buy a license for XP yourself and installing it. This document gives some guidance for doing that: From Vista To XP.

As to RAID, are you looking for RAID 1 for backup/security purposes? If so, then if you cannot locate computer that has RAID built into the motherboard, then you could look at some form of an external drive that will do RAID. This can be a Firewire or maybe even a USB drive. Or you can get NAS (network attached storage) drives with RAID. If you give a little more detail on what you are after in terms of the RAID options (i.e. how you plan to use it), we might be able to offer some alternatives.

[soapbox] Backup good...no backup bad!! [/soap box]

fluidwebsitedesign

4 posts since
Nov 25, 2007

2. Nov 25, 2007 11:16 PM

in response to: smax013

Re: Purchasing New Desktop - Need Advice

Hi smax013 - thanks for your quick reply - I really appreciate your help!

Not really comfortable building my own; I would really rather buy it online. I'll checkout Gateway, although when I checked PCWorld.com they didn't list too many Gateway computers in their top line...?

Yes - I am looking to use the RAID setup for backup/security purposes, will that affect the performance of the computer? What do you think of vigorgaming.com?

Thanks again!

smax013

3,752 posts since
Jan 28, 2007

3. Nov 25, 2007 11:35 PM

in response to: fluidwebsitedesign

Re: Purchasing New Desktop - Need Advice

fluidwebsitedesign wrote:
Hi smax013 - thanks for your quick reply - I really appreciate your help!

Not really comfortable building my own; I would really rather buy it online.

I'll checkout Gateway, although when I checked PCWorld.com they didn't list too many Gateway computers in their top line...?

Yes - I am looking to use the RAID setup for backup/security purposes, will that affect the performance of the computer? What do you think of vigorgaming.com?

Thanks again!

I don't know much about boutique computer makers (i.e. vigorgaming.com or cyberpower)...you will have to see what others in the community offer. I know there is at least one person who has a Vigor computer, I believe. I know others have opinions about cyberpower and may even have bought from them. Personally, I will never buy from Dell again (their customer service from my most recent Dell had some "issues"), but then now that I have built a computer for myself, I will likely never buy from a computer makers again...except for Apple (the only reason my most recent desktop was NOT a Mac was because I wanted to build a computer AND I still have a need, and to some degree a desire, to run Windoze for some things). I know some people who really like Gateway...some others that hate them.

As to RAID, if you are not playing games or editting videos, then hard drive speed is not likely to be the end all, be all for you. Thus, you should have no problem running stuff off an external drive. As such, if you cannot get RAID 1 on a motherboard, then you could easily get it by way of a Firewire drive (personally, I would take Firewire over USB 2.0...but then just make sure that your computer has a Firewire drive...it appeared the Gateway computers did) or maybe even an eSATA drive. An eSATA drive would essentially be no different speed wise from an internal SATA drive, especially if you just use a "pass-thru" adapter that goes from an internal SATA port to an eSATA port on the back (basically just a bracket with eSATA ports that then connect to your internal SATA ports). I have not found too many eSATA RAID equipped drives, however. LaCie supposedly will have one available (they have a Firewire/USB one and a NAS with 10/100/1000 ethernet right now).

[soapbox] Backup good...no backup bad!! [/soap box]

fluidwebsitedesign

4 posts since
Nov 25, 2007

4. Nov 26, 2007 1:58 PM

in response to: smax013

Re: Purchasing New Desktop - Need Advice

Hi again

So you suggest instead of a RAID setup just backup to an external FireWire drive?

smax013

3,752 posts since
Jan 28, 2007

5. Nov 26, 2007 10:24 PM

in response to: fluidwebsitedesign

Re: Purchasing New Desktop - Need Advice

fluidwebsitedesign wrote:
Hi again

So you suggest instead of a RAID setup just backup to an external FireWire drive?

What I am suggesting is that if you cannot find a main stream computer with RAID supported on the motherboard, you can get an external drive with RAID. RAID 1 will mirror data between two drives (automatically backup one drive to another). The problem is that most consumer level computers DON'T offer RAID built-in...unless you build your computer yourself with a motherboard that supports it or buy a higher end "gaming" computer from the likes of Dell or others. Many gaming computers will support RAID 0 and RAID 1...games tend to like the RAID 0 (striping) as it offers speed improvements, but is REALLY bad for data security (one drive bites the dust and your data is toast if you don't have a backup).

The point is that there are variety of ways to get a RAID 1 setup if that is what you are after. One way is to have it supported on the motherboard. This will allow you to setup two internal hard drives in a RAID 1 array and have an "auto" backup. I believe, however, you will find it difficult to find a new computer from a mainstream computer manufacturer with RAID 1 support on the motherboard AND that you can order with Windoze XP. As I said in my first post, it does not appear as if ANY of the consumer level computers that Dell is offering has RAID support built in that you can get with XP. They do have some more expensive XPS systems with Vista that you can get with RAID built-in.

This means you will have to find another route to getting a RAID setup if you really want a RAID 1 array. A second option is some sort of external drive that includes RAID 1 support. Here is an external USB/Firewire drive that has RAID support from LaCie. Here is an external NAS (network attached storage) drive that has RAID support from LaCie. There are other options available from other companies. This is another RAID NAS option that rgreen4 has and uses, but is rather expensive...but has support for other RAID configurations other than RAID 0 and RAID 1. All these options would require you to store your data on some sort of external drive.

Another option is to get a drive controller card with RAID support such as this. This option would require to install the controller card in an open slot and then hook up your internal drives that you want to put in a RAID array to that card not the motherboard. This option would be done by internal drives, but does require using a card slot.

Another option is software RAID. Some folks will not recommend this option and prefer hardware RAID options. But, it is a possible option.

And you could always just forget RAID and go with a more traditional backup strategy...store your data on internal drive(s) and then use a backup program to back up the data to an external drive. Or combine a traditional backup strategy with RAID...which is what I plan on doing. I will have a RAID 1 array set for my data drive (since my motherboard supports RAID 1) but then I will also backup my data to an external drive (which I also intend to be a RAID 1 array setup as well).

[soapbox] Backup good...no backup bad!! [/soap box]

VladTheImpaler1990

753 posts since
Jun 4, 2007

6. Nov 26, 2007 11:09 PM

in response to: fluidwebsitedesign

Re: Purchasing New Desktop - Need Advice

Hey remember just because you have a quad core does not mean that it will run quad cores, i don't think mirosoft will upgrade xp to use a quad core, i only think vista will, but i stand to correction, and also guys 4 gigs of ram xp does not know how to run more than 3.5, and some sites say they can only rn 3.15 and if you have more than that then it won't use it. But also if you get vista then some of your pro grams won't run on it so it is your choice, good luck!!

fluidwebsitedesign

4 posts since
Nov 25, 2007

7. Nov 27, 2007 10:57 AM

in response to: VladTheImpaler1990

Re: Purchasing New Desktop - Need Advice

WOW...I wasn't aware of the Quad Core or memory issue. Thanks for giving me a heads up on that.

So, if I get a computer with Windows Vista Home Basic (or Premium) with a quad core processor and 4GB RAM - do you think it will handle Outlook, Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Excel, Accounting 2007 and IE7 at a fast pace (they all work with Vista - thats what I have on my laptop right now)?

What would you suggest I buy?

smax013

3,752 posts since
Jan 28, 2007

8. Nov 27, 2007 12:44 PM

in response to: fluidwebsitedesign

Re: Purchasing New Desktop - Need Advice

fluidwebsitedesign wrote:
WOW...I wasn't aware of the Quad Core or memory issue. Thanks for giving me a heads up on that.

What would you suggest I buy?

First of all, no matter what, you DO NOT want Vista Home Basic. It is a severely crippled/limited version of Vista.

Next, all 32-bit versions of Windoze (both XP and Vista) have the same issues with the 4 gb of memory. 32-bit systems DO use the full 4 gb, it is just that not all 4 gb of it is "user addressable" (i.e. used for applications). As Vlad aluded to, if you get 4 gb of memory, you will only end up with about 3 to 3.5 gb of memory that can be used by applications. This is usually MORE than enough for any applicaiton that you might run. Photoshop is the one that could use more memory, but it gets around the physical RAM limit by using swap files/virtual memory (i.e. hard drive space). The only way to get past the 4 gb limit is to use either the 64 bit version of XP or Vista...but then you will likely run into software and driver issues (not all drivers or software works with 64 bit Windoze). The end result is that you will be fine with 4 gb...just realize that you will not get full direct use of that full 4 gb.

As to multi core useage, XP (both Home and Pro) support multiple cores. XP Home does NOT support more than one physical processor, but XP Pro does. How much benefit you will get out of multicore processors will depend on the OS AND the applications that you use. I believe if an application does not support multiple cores, then you can still gain some benefit by having the OS divide up work (i.e. one application gets assigned to one core and other processes go to the other core). But, if you want one application to use the multiple cores (i.e. divide the work up between cores for that ONE application) then that application has to support multiple cores. The point is that depending on the OS and application you are dealing with, a multiple core processor may see significant benefit and may not.

[soapbox] Backup good...no backup bad!! [/soap box]

rgreen4

3,777 posts since
Oct 22, 2006

9. Nov 27, 2007 1:15 PM

in response to: fluidwebsitedesign

Re: Purchasing New Desktop - Need Advice

Sorry I'm late to the party, but been fighting Internet connection problems at work all day. First on the Raid - Raid drives can be used as backup devices, but you lose the effectiveness that way. Raid drives are best used as the normal data drives. This way, in Raid 1, if you lose a drive (as I did one Sunday morning back in August), after the initial panic settles down, you realize that everything is still OK, because the remaining drive is synced (mirrored if you prefer), so performing due dilligence you simply force an immediate backup to an external drive. You then replace the failed drive (I did not have an on hand spare then, but do now) and restart if necessary the unit. My Infrant book says I do not need to shut down the unit to replace or insert a drive, but I do anyway (old school). I then sent the drive off to be replaced under warranty (2 months old).

Raid 1 gives you the comfort of knowing that when you save a file - you are saving 2 identical copies, one on drive 1 and one on drive 2. I also do a full backup of the box to an external drive (actually an internal drive on a desktop connected to the network) once a month. After backing up, I disconnect the back up drive until the next month end.

The LaCie unit was not available when I got my unit, and Infrant after the buyout by Netgear, has raised their prices. One of the plusses for the Infront was that you could purchase drives from anywhere. One of my Seagates came from Best Buy that Sunday afternoon. Others like Iomega require that you buy the replacement drives from them, and of course I can buy two Seagates/WD/Hitachis from Newegg for one Iomega drive.

You asked about the memory handling everything, how much memory do you have on your laptop that is handling everything now?

I would normally recommend the E6750 which both Smax and I have over the Quad Cores, but if you are going graphics rendering, then your application may be able to take advantage of the extra two cores. I am running Vista on three machines, two desktops and one laptop all dual cores. The one I mentioned with the E6750 is actually one I will do experiments with as it has room for 5 drives and I usually have 3 in it, but XP and Vista, and will clone a drive and test different problems and see how it works. In fact last night I installed, reinstalled, and reinstalled Vista on a drive to get the details on the steps for a document. My main machine is a slower dual core that is a year old and came from HP with XP Media Center and now has Vista Home Premium. My backup to it is my old XP Pro Desktop with a 3.2GHz P4. Another advantage of the NAS, is that by storing my data on it, I can access the data from any machine without keeping a machine on.

TechyGuy

701 posts since
Oct 6, 2007

10. Nov 27, 2007 4:20 PM

in response to: fluidwebsitedesign

Re: Purchasing New Desktop - Need Advice

Well, I haven't read any of the earlier posts in this thread, so please excuse me if I restate anything.

Cyberpower is overall a very good vendor, and I have been happy with the old system I bought from them a feww years back(I use a new PC, now). In my opion, AVA and Vigor are two of the best on the market, when it comes to high-performance systems. My current PC is a Vigor, actually.

As for the RAID setup,RAID-1 is best security, though if you can afford three drives, and the vendor offers RAID-5, then you not only get security, but a slight performance increase is well. For the Quad-Core CPU, AMD just released its Phenom X4 quad-core series last week, though an Intel Core 2 Quad or Extreme is better, unless you have a tight budget fo this rig.

Have you considered buying a worstation or server, since you are hosting a website, from what I understand? AMD offers quad-core Opteron for servers, and Intel Quad-Core Xeon, though Xeons are very expensive. if it is a server/worstation that you're looking for, then Xi is also good.

As for the RAM, then I reccomend either Mushkin or OCZ, maybe Corsair, too. If this is truly going to be really high-end, and only if you can afford it, then DDR3 RAM is extremely good as far as performance goes. If DDR2 RAM is prefered, then the best you can buy is probably Corsair Dominator RAM. Do note that special motherboards are reqiured to have DDR3 RAM.

A few reccomendations on your graphics-card(s)(GPU). Good Nvidia makers are EVGA and XFX. The best bang-for-the-buck card out there is the 8800GT, it sells for about $250 USD, and has performance just under a $525 8800GTX.

Make sure that you have a powerful enough Power-supply(PSU) to support all of your components. for two 500GBs hard-disks, 4GB of high-end RAM, and a quad-core CPU, anywhere from 700watts to a kilowatt should do, depending on your other components. Also equally important is that you get a good motherboard(mobo). If you want SLI, make sure you have an SLI supporting board with 680i SLI. My personal reccomendations would eithe be an MSI P6N Diamond nforce 680i, or an Asus P5N32-E nforce 680i. The best board out ther is the Asus Striker Extreme, but its overclockability is limited.

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