PC World Community: Is Apple the New Microsoft? ...

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Scortch

41 posts since
May 17, 2007

210. Dec 3, 2007 11:48 AM

in response to: RastaMon

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

Lol, it's all there in black and white. I have posted the information, it's there, try reading. I matched and even beat what Apple had and still came up way under price.

I have not said anything about, nor am I trying to win over any mac user to windows. Windows don't need you.

I have said it time and again that it's the overpriced hardware that's the problem and the fact that Apple charges like $850 for 4gb memory to users that come to their site to get a computer. They know it's price gouging and continue to do it. Yet people claim Apple is concerned about the customer. All they are concerned with is lining their pockets by price gouging and using inferior hardware. I have shown several examples of where Apple is lacking and ripping people off. They set up their devices so that people can't change the batteries so that they will have to send them to Apple to get replaced for a hefty fee. That's not looking out for the customer.

Again, it has NOTHING to do with the OS. I don't like Vista either but XP works like a champ and has everything people need. When Apple puts OS X out for the PC where I can build my own and not get ripped off by the company, then I would probably add OS X. I would still need to keep XP, etc. because VERY VERY VERY few game companies make Online or multiplayer FPS games for the Mac. Heck, for that matter, any game except maybe solitaire. Radeon 2600s aren't going to cut it either. You said yourself you weer stuck playing at 1024x768 with low settings. Wait until you experience a good quality game at 1600x1050 or higher with all the settings on.

Again, let me speak slowly here for some people, T h i s h a s n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h e O S. I t i s s t r i c t l y a b o u t h a r d w a r e.

You have seen the prices and know I am right. You say features are missing but, you refuse to say what they are. It cost very little to get a decent camera. Heck, with all the money I would be saving, I could get a video camera and patch that in and be able to use it for other things besides with the computer.

Oh, and it's not millions more like you. It's more like 100s more like you. Even then that's too many people being price gouged.

By your standards though, it's ok for a company to charge someone $850+ (not counting the price of the initial 1gb) for 4gb memory when the rest of the industry is paying like $115 for 4gb total. It's ok to have a decent processor in there, yet stick a crappy POS radeon 2600 or geforce 7300 in the machine. That I can see in a way because you don't need nothing great for solitaire or spreadsheets.

johnhope

12 posts since
Nov 20, 2007

211. Dec 3, 2007 11:57 AM

in response to: RastaMon

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

It al resumes here: Gold vs crap. Mac vs Windows box.

RastaMon

393 posts since
Sep 10, 2007

212. Dec 4, 2007 3:53 PM

in response to: Scortch

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

Lol, it's all there in black and white. I have posted the information, it's there, try reading. I matched and even beat what Apple had and still came up way under price.

You haven't built a complete equivalent machine (Yours is missing important features.), and you haven't offered enough information to verify the specifications or the prices of what you have found. You claimed you could build an equivalent machine for significantly cheaper. I'm trying to give you the opportunity to back up your claim with some evidence. How hard is it to actually copy links to parts if you actually look them up? It's just as easy, perhaps easier, to create a public wish list, as I initially suggested. I'm interested to see if you can pull it off, although I'm admittedly highly skeptical, but I'm not going to do or document your research for you.

You have seen the prices and know I am right. You say features are missing but, you refuse to say what they are.

I only want to go through your list once, after you offer enough product information (i.e. links or a NewEgg wishlist) to verify the specs and prices. I shouldn't have to explain all the standard features to someone who claims to be able to build an equivalent machine for significantly less.

Scortch

41 posts since
May 17, 2007

213. Dec 4, 2007 4:03 PM

in response to: RastaMon

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

Like I said, I have already gone through all the parts. You say you don't have the time but you expect others to do it. You can search NewEgg just as easily as I can. You have yet to prove you can't build an equivalent for cheaper, I have. I have listed all the major parts. All the minor stuff is just that, minor and adds little cost.

I have asked you time and again what features you THINK is missing but, you can't do it. You don't have to explain jack, I can read websites and know the features. You however can not list the features you claim are missing.

I shouldn't have to explain all the standard features to someone who claims Apple is a better product when you can't even put together a PC.

Again I ask you, do you think it's right for Apple to charge $850 to customers coming to their website to build a PC for 4gb of memory when that same memory is like $120 or so in reality? Is it alright for Apple to price gouge their customers?

RastaMon

393 posts since
Sep 10, 2007

214. Dec 4, 2007 9:19 PM

in response to: Scortch

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

Like I said, I have already gone through all the parts.

As I will do, as soon as you offer up sufficient information to do so. I don't need to search New Egg. I've already tried to build the hypothetical cheaper equivalent, using the lowest cost parts possible, without resorting to subpar quality or sacrificing user features. I already know that it is not as easy or inexpensive as you claim. Why do you think I'm calling you on it? Of course, if you really believe your own claims, a public wish list would only strengthen your case, wouldn't it?

You claim you found all the parts on NewEgg. If that is the case, it should not take but a few minutes of your time to create a public wish list. However, with as little info as you have offered, it would require much, much more of my time, and then I would have to listen to objections about how that wasn't the part you referred to, and you found it for less money. I'm trying to help you build yourself a solid case, since you seem adamant that the machine can be reproduced for significantly less without sacrificing features.

When you show me a list of parts with enough information that I can easily check them, then I'll take a detailed look to see if there's more than the 2-3 missing features that I noticed in the first twenty seconds of looking over your "list." I don't want you to have to make corrections more than once.

Again I ask you, do you think it's right for Apple to charge $850 to customers coming to their website to build a PC for 4gb of memory when that same memory is like $120 or so in reality?

Yeah, you keep mentioning Apple's overpriced memory. It's the only valid point you've thus made. I have pointed out how ridiculously easy it is to use aftermarket memory in Macs with Apple's blessing, but you keep ignoring that part, as it doesn't align with the Apple hater philosophy.

You don't have to explain jack, I can read websites and know the features.

Here, perhaps you should entertain the possibility that maybe you overlooked some features.

Scortch

41 posts since
May 17, 2007

215. Dec 4, 2007 6:26 PM

in response to: RastaMon

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

When you offer up the 2-3 so called features you keep claiming are missing, I'll pony up a list of parts. How's that? I mean if you have already found them, then listing them shouldn't be a problem right? Like you say it should be a problem for me to list the parts. You claim you found 2-3 missing features in the first 20 seconds. If that's the case, then there shouldn't be any problem with you taking a few seconds to list them.

Maybe it's just easy for me since I have been doing it for 25 years. I guess it's not so easy for someone that deals with pre-built systems.

Thank you for admitting it's a valid point and it's been my point in this whole debate. Apple overcharging it's customers that go to the sites that don't know about going to places like NewEgg to get cheaper memory or other parts. You said it yourself, the reason people buy an Apple, is that they want it to just work. That's because most of those people don't know any better, in that they know they want (or need) a computer but, don't know anything about them as far as building, getting parts from other places, etc.

My point all along is comparing Apple's prices and their hardware, with the rest of the industry. I have the same issues with Dell, etc. in that they WAY overprice their hardware too. Well, that and the fact that you can't build your own Mac (which is nothing but a PC now). That you have to deal with what they offer.

The people that go to their sites trust that they will do them right. How is charging almost 10 times more for memory, than the norm, doing their customers right? That's what I have been asking and trying to point out all along. How is sticking a cheap POS Radeon 2600 or Geforce 7300 in a system that's supposed to be really kick butt and still charging massive amounts for it.

I'm not ignoring that you can go to NewEgg and get cheaper memory. I'm just pointing out that most people that go to Apple, Dell, etc. usually just plain don't know any better and for Apple to take advantage of them like that is just plain wrong.

I can see charging $300, $400 or so more for a pre-built system because of the overhead in the factory and warranties and so on but to charge $850 more for just memory alone is just donwright wrong. How can you trust a company that will do that to their customers?

When I built the system, I was comparing the iMac at the Apple store.

RastaMon

393 posts since
Sep 10, 2007

216. Dec 4, 2007 9:17 PM

in response to: Scortch

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

Apple charges too much for memory, not necessarily everything. I can upgrade a MacPro from a 2 x dual core Xeon 2,0 GHz 5100 series processors to 2 x quad core Xeon 3.0 GHz 5300 series processors for less money through Apple than the difference in the prices of the same hardware at NewEgg.

My point all along is comparing Apple's prices and their hardware, with the rest of the industry.

No, you've been claiming Apple hardware is low quality and over priced, and that's simply not true. Their hardware reliability is typically at or near the top of the industry. Apple is a major player in the hardware industry, as are companies like Dell and HP. The DIY community is quite small compared to the industry. Heck, it's even tough to get any significant savings with a DIY project these days compared to just careful shopping of prebuilt systems, since the big boys like Apple, Dell, et al make much of their profits via buying power. When you sell 5,000,000+ computers a year like Apple, you rate some volume discounts from the manufacturers that just aren't available to do it yourselfers.

That doesn't mean it's foolish to build your own system. It can be enjoyable, and offers the ability to tweak the specs to exactly what you want, with nothing that you don't want. It can be rewarding. But, there's also something to be said for buying that new prebuilt that can plugged into power, plugged into the internet, and is up and running, just that quick, just that simple. Sure, you might end up buying some features you didn't really need (albeit at a fair price), but then again, with the opportunity to play around with and experiment with such features just might cause you to see their value.

How is sticking a cheap POS Radeon 2600 or Geforce 7300 in a system that's supposed to be really kick butt and still charging massive amounts for it.

Macs are not marketed as gaming machines. In fact, for heavy gaming, the MacBook Pro is pretty much the best choice available. It performs admirably, but there is only so far you can take a gaming laptop. It's a Catch 22. Until there is more support for the Mac by gaming developers, there's little reason to inflate the price of new Macs with the latest, greatest video cards. But, until Macs support the latest greatest video cards, there's little reason for game developers to support the Mac platform. Slowly but steadily that's changing, partly due to the switch to Intel, partly due to the Windows support, partly due to the growing market share, heck, I bet Microsoft taking tighter control of how software interacts with hardware in Vista compared to previous versions is even playing a role.

Also contributing is the fact that while they may not perform as well as the latest and greatest, given sufficient system memory, integrated graphics cards perform a lot better than people expect. I'm not a gamer, but I was pleasantly surprised how well my MacBook, with its GMA 950 performed. I won't be playing Crysis any time soon, but I can play much more demanding games (Call Of Duty 2, for example), at high settings without lag, than I ever expected from an integrated graphics solution. The iMac should perform even better, and the MacPro much, much better.

The same can be said of places like Best Buy. Like it or not we live in a world where informed consumers get the best deals. It pays to do your research. It doesn't matter what you're buying. The uninformed customers get shafted.

When you offer up the 2-3 so called features you keep claiming are missing, I'll pony up a list of parts. How's that? I mean if you have already found them, then listing them shouldn't be a problem right? Like you say it should be a problem for me to list the parts. You claim you found 2-3 missing features in the first 20 seconds. If that's the case, then there shouldn't be any problem with you taking a few seconds to list them.

Fair enough.

1. 24 Watt stereo amplifier
2. webcam / microphone (not top of the line, but not bottom end either)
3. Digital audio outputs/inputs so that audio can be played through the DAC of a high end (or even mid-range) home stereo.

(I'm pretty sure there was another big one missing, as well as some smaller stuff, but I'm not certain, so I'll stop there for now.)

Maybe it's just easy for me since I have been doing it for 25 years. I guess it's not so easy for someone that deals with pre-built systems.

Don't mistake my preference for Macs as ignorance of hardware or computers. I can easily boast 25+ years as well, but it would be just as meaningless. Computer technology changes too quickly for such longevity to offer significant benefits. I'm not a SuperGeek, but I'm not exactly a novice, either.

I eagerly await your list.

Scortch

41 posts since
May 17, 2007

217. Dec 4, 2007 10:46 PM

in response to: RastaMon

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

I'm sorry if it came across as if I was saying that you were ignorant of hardware or computers, it was not meant that way. I meant in general by the average person that buys at places like Apple.com, Dell, etc.

The main point is still the ripoff of memory prices to people that don't know any better. I can sort of let go the rest of it as Dell, etc. are just as pricey. $850 though is just over the line in a huge way and down right criminal to me. It's just plain out wrong for ANY company to do that to their customers.

OK, most MBs that are anywhere decent have built in audio and offer digital out in the form of Coaxial and Optical and the better ones also offer digital input. I'm not sure of the wattage though as most PC speakers are amplified. A lot of the better ones come with 7.1 capability.

I'm not even sure if the output power is listed anywhere as far as the MB goes, or even sound cards for that matter. Some pre-built systems like HP, etc. do have amps built into the cards, at least they did at one time. That's jsut a matter of taste. I would rather my speakers have the amp built in and not the sound card. You have a MUCH broader choice of speakers then.

You can get webcams with built in mic from $10, all the way to $120 or so. It just depends on resolution and brand name.

I'll get you a list after I finish watching Tin Man.

Scortch

41 posts since
May 17, 2007

218. Dec 5, 2007 1:47 AM

in response to: RastaMon

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

You are right about Best Buy. They pretty bad at ripping customers off too. I have chewed them a new one many times on their memory prices also. You can get the memory from the manufacturer's website for up to 1/4th the price BB charges. I don't shop there much except maybe small stuff or, they have a discount on the item I am looking for and it's close to the same price I would pay for the item and shipping. I shop CompUsa more.

Yes, the uninformed customer gets shafted but, it just says really bad things about the companies that do the shafting. It says the company has no morals or qualms about ripping people off. That's why they design the ipods and iphones so that people have to send them back in to change the battery and charge them outrageous prices. It's more of that scam being run on the customers. It just says a lot about Apple's principles, or lack thereof. Just because others do it too, doesn't make it right.

Anyway...

The built in 24w Amp deals with the built in speakers, which can't sound that good but, I may be wrong. As I said, we all (well most) use amplified speakers so the sound cards are not amplified. So, I will go with at least 24w stereo (2.1) speaker system.

I'll concede the low quality hardware remark as I'm not sure how much trouble people have with Macs (and I haven't heard the sound from a Mac), for the price, except the video card and memory prices. It ticks me off how Dell will do the same thing. They stuff it full of high end hardware and CPUs and then throw in a low end budget video card that's for playing solitaire on.

I'll have to finish the list tomorrow. Have to get up early and it's late. I will have it though.

mphenterprises

9,068 posts since
Feb 19, 2007

219. Dec 5, 2007 3:00 AM

in response to: Scortch

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

Hi Scortch and RastaMon. You both make valid points regarding consumers. Please remember, the vast majority of consumers who use sites like PCWorld as a reference are a strong minority. We account for, maybe, 25-30% of the consumer base. We know how to research different sites to get the best price. We know how to weigh quality versus price....the same way one would compare prices at a supermarket.

I don't remember which one of you said this but the fact is, the majority of consumers just want a computer to work. They do not know the differences between a CPU and a GPU, or how to install hardware. They just want a computer to do the basic things they want, internet, email, games, etc.

There is a local store in this area that says, "An educated consumer is our best customer." That is absolutely true. If you know what you want and how you want it, you will find it at the best price available. Personally, I buy the vast majority of my computer supplies from Newegg. Why? Simply because Newegg provides the lowest prices, period. As Scortch stated, there are times when I buy from other locations such as Staples, eBay, or local computer shows but that is simply because I find deals that are far and away below what anyone else would sell that same item. For example, a few months ago, I bought a 22" Widescreen LCD monitor for less than $200 from Staples. The monitor was on sale, had an instant rebate of $70, and since I bought it on line, I received free shipping.

To tie this all together with the article, Apple is not trying to inflate prices. They are simply providing a product at a price they believe is fair, Economics 101. Is Apple the New Microsoft? Well, let's compare. Microsoft charges upwards of $400 for their latest Operating System. Why? Because that is the price that will balanced cost of making the product versus profit margin. If either Apple or Microsoft choose to sell their respective products at high rates, the market (i.e. the consumers) will dictate whether or not the prices are fair.

Additionally, I really do not think a comparison should be made between the two. Apple covers everything, hardware, Operating Systems, and software. Microsoft only covers Operating Systems and software. Therefore, Apple is tapping into more of the consumer base than Microsoft. If Microsoft ever came up with an all in one system, similar to the iMac, then I think a comparison can begin.

Mind you, I have never used an Apple or even an iPod for that matter. However, because I am a business owner, I have to respect the fact that Apple has tapped into a niche that Microsoft has not. So in my humble opinion, Apple and Microsoft should really not be compared. Apple is doing their thing and Microsoft is doing their own thing. There is plenty of room within the market for both.

This is my personal Dream PC: http://forums.pcworld.com/blogs/mphenterprises/2007/12/21/my-gift-to-myself

Scortch

41 posts since
May 17, 2007

220. Dec 7, 2007 2:22 PM

in response to: Scortch

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

I finally got time to sit down and build it last night after internet came back up but, I'm just waiting for NewEgg to push the list to the public listing. I don't know why it's taking so long unless they just do it once a day.

Scortch

41 posts since
May 17, 2007

221. Dec 7, 2007 11:03 PM

in response to: Scortch

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/wishlist/PublicWishDetail.asp?WishListNumber=5340334

Some notes...

I'm comparing this to an iMac with 2.4ghz Core 2 Duo and 4gb memory, 24in screen, 500gb HDD. $2750 @ Apple.com

Case.. This is a huge variable. There are thousands of cases to choose from from $40 to $400+ I chose a decent one at average prices.

MB - Again, there are just so many to choose from but I chose one from a good company and that has the features.

+ Video - I encluded an 8800GT that just walks off and leaves the 2600Pro. Take off $200 if you want the 2600Pro

+ CPU - I encluded a Core 2 Quad. I could have also used a 3GHZ Core 2 Duo for the same price.

+ Memory - ddr2 800 versus the 667 of the Mac

+ DVD writer 20x versus 8x of the Mac

There is just so much choice for the users.

$1887 if you don't count the discounts.

If I match the iMac, then it's like $300 less.

RastaMon

393 posts since
Sep 10, 2007

222. Dec 8, 2007 4:18 PM

in response to: Scortch

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

I'm comparing this to an iMac with 2.4ghz Core 2 Duo and 4gb memory, 24in screen, 500gb HDD. $2750 @ Apple.com

Okay. That configuration can be had for less, but we can discuss the price of the Apple when we have an equivalent PC to compare. We're not to that point yet.

Case.. This is a huge variable. There are thousands of cases to choose from from $40 to $400+ I chose a decent one at average prices.

I understand that you'll have to use some sort of case, but, please, at least choose one that is stylish and not so gaudy.

Video - I encluded an 8800GT that just walks off and leaves the 2600Pro. Take off $200 if you want the 2600Pro
CPU - I encluded a Core 2 Quad. I could have also used a 3GHZ Core 2 Duo for the same price.
Memory - ddr2 800 versus the 667 of the Mac

Please choose equivalents, for sake of a fair comparison.

Your choice of speakers is under-powered.

Your Bluetooth is external, only version 1.1, and does not support EDR.

The OEM version of Windows you chose does not include end user support, so cannot be considered equivalent. I also didn't see anything resembling iLife + iMovie HD, Front Row or Photo Booth.

The Mighty Mouse in conjunction with OS X has more functionality than a typical four button mouse. However, if Windows is so limited that such functionality is not available, I guess your choice will suffice. If such functionality is available, you should choose a mouse that supports it.

The viewing angle on your display choice is a little bit narrow, but it does have higher contrast than the iMac, so we can call it equivalent.

Your configuration lacks both powered IEEE 1394a (FireWire 400) and powered IEEE 1394b (FireWire 800). I'm still not seeing any optical audio outputs or inputs. I didn't notice any infrared support or a remote with your build.

Scortch

41 posts since
May 17, 2007

223. Dec 8, 2007 5:16 PM

in response to: RastaMon

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

You said I couldn't build one more powerful for less. That's what I did and now you say to use equivalents. LOL All the other stuff is nitpick minor stuff that cost a few dollars to add.

It helps to look at the MB pic. It will show Firewire and Optical and then if you go to the manufacturers site, you will see connections on the MB for In and Out. It clearly states it in the specs.

I'm not doing any more of your work for you. I backed up what I claimed. I provided links and you still won't even check the specs before nitpicking. It just proves you don't know anything about PCs and building them.

PC users use USB instead of firewire though. USB 2.0 is faster than Firewire and USB 3 will be faster than Firewire 800 @ like 5gbps.

External versus internal is nitpicking. Add $8 for crying out loud and get 2.0.

Mice come in so many flavors and many different buttons to use for many different things. Again with the nitpicking. I could spend $100 or more on a mouse and still be a LOT cheaper than the iMac. Look how many years it took Apple to get past 1 button mice LOL.

Speakers, again with the nitpick. With the money I saved for a BETTER PC for CHEAPER, I could still buy $100+ 7.1 surround sound system that will shatter the windows. I picked something equivalent. Does the iMac offer 7.1 surround?

I said I could build a far superior PC and you said prove it, I did and now you want to try and put it down by nitpicking on stuff and then say use equivalents. I stated at the bottom of my PC the differences and what to subtract. I can get an EQUIVALENT for $300+ less but my point was I could build better for less.

If you go to Apple's web site and order the stuff, you get it for the price they offer. You can't get it cheaper unless you know that their memory prices are set to ripoff amounts and go buy it somewhere else. Not many people that shop for Macs know any better. Just like people that shop for Dells don't know any better. So, Apple rips them off.

You can say they deserve it by not being informed but, I say a company that would take advantage of people like that doesn't deserve their business to start with and lacks morals. That part you ignore because well, it's Apple and they do no wrong.

If it were not for the ipod, Apple would have gone under by now with all 100 mac owners trying to keep them going.

Windows Vista is the only reason 10 more people have switched to macs. I don't care for Vista either.

It's over now. The only thing left is to get Apple to stop ripping people off. When I see them charging people $50 or so for 2gb versus 1gb and maybe $100 or so more for 4gb, then I will know they truely care about the customers. They should then refund all those people that had to pay ripoff prices.

RastaMon

393 posts since
Sep 10, 2007

224. Dec 8, 2007 7:03 PM

in response to: Scortch

Re: Is Apple the New Microsoft?

It helps to look at the MB pic. It will show Firewire and Optical and then if you go to the manufacturers site, you will see connections on the MB for In and Out. It clearly states it in the specs.

I stand corrected on the optical out ports, although it does not have optical in ports, nor does it have IEEE 1394 a or IEEE 1394b ports, so no, it is not equivalent.

PC users use USB instead of firewire though. USB 2.0 is faster than Firewire and USB 3 will be faster than Firewire 800 @ like 5gbps.

You're kidding yourself if you believe USB 2.0 is faster than FireWire 400. On paper it appears to be 20% faster, but in the real world, FireWire is virtually always just as fast, and almost always faster, often substantially so. USB is nice for peripherals that don't need a lot of bandwidth, but for things like external hard drives, FireWire is far superior. It takes 1.5 - 2 times as long to transfer files to my hard drive connected over USB as it does to transfer the same files over FireWire 400.

External versus internal is nitpicking. Add $8 for crying out loud and get 2.0.

It's not nitpicking at all. Using inferior specifications does not create an equivalent machine.

It's only a nitpick if you are happy with a lower speced machine. However, since the goal is to compare prices on an equivalent, then the speakers you chose are under spec.

I said I could build a far superior PC and you said prove it, I did and now you want to try and put it down by nitpicking on stuff and then say use equivalents.

You could leave the build as is, but then it wouldn't match or beat the feature set of the iMac like you claimed you could do.

If it were not for the ipod, Apple would have gone under by now with all 100 mac owners trying to keep them going.

Are each of those 100 Mac owners buying 50,000+ Macs a year or something? Apple is one of the top selling computer manufacturers in the industry, consistently selling WELL over a million new Macs per quarter.

It's over now.

Why? Have you given up? Are you conceding that you are unable to do what you claimed you could easily do? You certainly have not done it yet.

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