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14 Replies Last post: Mar 18, 2008 11:55 AM by djsyntek  
Click to view PCWorld's profile PCW News Bot 21,687 posts since
Aug 1, 2007
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Mar 14, 2008 5:20 PM

Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques

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Click to view jack253's profile New Member 2 posts since
Mar 6, 2008
1. Mar 15, 2008 8:54 AM in response to: PCWorld
Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques
I hope she drags these greedy bastards over the red hot coals.
Click to view samikey's profile New Member 8 posts since
Oct 22, 2006
2. Mar 16, 2008 7:39 AM in response to: PCWorld
Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques
RIAA is after the illegal downloading of music. If you want the music, pay for it. Just because it's too expensive for you to buy, doesn't justify getting it illegally. I want a car that is too expensive for me to buy. So, if I am to follow the rationalization of these downloaders, I should be able to take it without paying for it. People who write songs and those who perform them have a right to get paid for the job they do. Want to bring prices down? Don't buy the music. Remember the economic concept of supply and demand. Oh, by the way, it's not permissible to steal even if the person you're stealing from is a multi-millionaire. Would the average worker want to perform their job and not get paid like they should? Don't steal from people who make their living working in the recording industry.
Click to view RastaMon's profile Member 393 posts since
Sep 10, 2007
3. Mar 16, 2008 12:02 PM in response to: samikey
Re: Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques
RIAA is after the illegal downloading of music.

Then the cases should be pursued in criminal court, rather than civil court. Criminal courts have a MUCH higher burden of proof. In civil court, if a jury finds that the defendant was just slightly more likely than not to have done something, then they can find in favor of the plaintiff. Fifty percent likelihood plus a hunch is simply not good enough, especially when it comes to downloaded music, since the RIAA lacks evidence that illegal file sharing has a detrimental effect on music sales.

The RIAA needs to adhere to appropriate and ethical standards of discovery. Their alleged tactics are worse than the crime they are alleging has been committed. Too many people accept the RIAA's claims at face value, without examining the evidence. If the accused have committed crimes, then they should receive their due process in the criminal justice system. Heck, the RIAA wouldn't even need to foot the legal bill for if they filed criminal charges, and could still recover damages. That they avoid criminal prosecutions should raise a red flag about the validity of their claims.

Incidentally, an empirical study by researchers from Harvard Business School and University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill concludes that file sharing does not affect sales in a statistically significant manner. Another (less academically vigorous) examination by George Ziemann concludes that there has been a decrease in new music releases that corresponds to the decrease in music sales. These conclusions would indicate that, while file sharing of copyrighted music is a violation of the letter of the law, it is within the spirit of Fair Use, and the law should be amended to reflect such.
Click to view janekMZ's profile New Member 19 posts since
Jan 1, 2007
4. Mar 16, 2008 12:26 PM in response to: PCWorld
Re: Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques
Also, I believe that a lot of people download illegal music or break the copyright laws because the RIAA in a way is forcing them. Let me explain. I might be wrong, but the current RIAA copyright law prohibits copying, for personal use, a legally purchased CD. If one wants to listen to the CD on home stereo, or a car stereo then he/she would have to carry all the CDs between home and car. And if one wants to listen to the same CD on a portable player then he/she would have to pay again for the same songs for the specific portable player. I mean would you buy three versions of the same car, one for work, one for school, and one for going out. Consumers should be able to copy CDs and legally download music and convert it to any format as many times as they want as long as it's for their personal use and that they maintain the original CDs or receipts of downloaded music for verification of ownership.

samikey, I agree partially with you. Yes, illegal music is wrong and we should pay for it just like for any service or product. However, I think the point of this story and the lawsuit is not about illegal downloads, but how the RIAA conducts searches of people that break the law. If you steal a car and the police does an illegal search of your premises without an warrant then I believe it's a miss trail in the court. The RIAA is NOT a police, they should not invade our online privacy and conduct illegal scans of our PCs.

I also agree if you don't like the product or can't afford then don't buy it, but also don't download it illegally. If both sides play nicely, then maybe we come up with a fair solution for everyone.
Click to view RastaMon's profile Member 393 posts since
Sep 10, 2007
5. Mar 16, 2008 12:21 PM in response to: janekMZ
Re: Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques
CDs can be copied under Fair Use, provided the copies are not distributed, except with the original included.

However, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) makes it illegal to bypass any digital copy protection, even if the material on the copy protected media is not, in itself, protected by copyright. Copy protected "CD"s are not, by definition, Compact Discs, as they do not adhere the the Red Book standard. If a such a disc is labeled or sold as a Compact Disc, then the consumer should be entitled to a refund. Surprisingly, Sony, the most well known violator of the Red Book standard cowrote the standard.
Click to view rtfire1's profile Member 457 posts since
Jan 24, 2008
6. Mar 17, 2008 10:07 AM in response to: PCWorld
Re: Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques
I once got a letter from the riaa about how i donloaded x number of songs and all that crap one problem I had the cheap free net zero that was like 15 min or so a month. I only checked my e-mail at home where i was on-line at work all day I didn't want to be checking e-mails at home. Long story short they wanted someone else.
Click to view rolandk10's profile New Member 5 posts since
Sep 21, 2006
7. Mar 17, 2008 10:30 AM in response to: PCWorld
Re: Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques

All of these lawsuits have always felt ugly. Feelings aside, as an IT consultant, I've run across 5 instances personally that went something like this: A customer has me come over to their house for routine PC maintenence. I notice a cute little icon in the system tray for a file sharing service (insert and name). Come to find out, a child or grand child who visited last summer for a few days had installed it. Here's the problem. The customer leagally ripped some cd's to their system. By default, these ripped tracks were placed in the 'my music' folder. The file sharing software that my customer had no idea about was by default sharing the 'my music' folder. Since the file sharing program was loading at start up, my customers were inadvertantly sharing all their music.

Without knowing how the RIAA gathers information, it's unclear as to whether or not this type of unintended sharing would be prosecuted. Heck, the file sharing software could even install itself over a spyware/malware downloader. Who then gets sued?

Finally, I also run a mobile DJ business on the side. I attempted to contact via phone and email, ASCAP, SESAC, BMI, and RIAA about some specific question reguarding copyright, puplic playback, digital downloads and such. Not a single one of them answered the phone or the emails. So to me, this isn't a campaign to raise awarness and force compliance. It's a money making witchhunt and I think they should start being looked at for RICO or anti-trust.

Click to view rtfire1's profile Member 457 posts since
Jan 24, 2008
8. Mar 17, 2008 10:40 AM in response to: rolandk10
Re: Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques
I used to help a dj wire up all his lights and stuff. He had to pay for some paper that lets him play music in a none home location for public listening. He even had someone come up to him at a show to see his paper.
Click to view rolandk10's profile New Member 5 posts since
Sep 21, 2006
9. Mar 17, 2008 11:01 AM in response to: rtfire1
Re: Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques

Well, over the months of research I've done on licensing for public use, I have a handle on most of it I 'THINK". There are still some grey areas. Other DJ's I've spoken to have given me their interpretation of the rules. Some given me facts that they got from who knows where. Therein lies the problem. Why is it so obsucure? If any of those agencies were concerned about compliance, why can't they give me an answer? Are they just leaveing it grey so they have an avenue to sue at the leisure?

For instance, can a DJ play a purchased DRM free digital download for a crowd? What about a CD purchased from a major retailer. They say right on them for personal use. Does this mean that I can only play music purchased from authorized places? If so where are they? What about CD compilations made by the DJ. Canada has a license that covers this. USA doesn't. Does this mean I can compile CD's without getting sued or does this mean I can't consolodate my CD's?

These are some of the questions I wanted to get answered from the horses mouth directly and not hearsay from DJ Stranger. Where are the answers to these questions written? Everything is so grey it's left me to interprut my own way and that's the way it will be. Why does it have to be this way? How hardr is it? Question, answer. All my questions are yes or no. It would take someone in the know 45 seconds to answer.

P.S. I know about the venue licensing. That's not what my questions were about.

Sorry if this wnt off topic. It's just my personal expierence as to why I think the RIAA and other copyright enforcement agencies really don't care about compliance. Just $$$.

Click to view samikey's profile New Member 8 posts since
Oct 22, 2006
10. Mar 17, 2008 11:08 AM in response to: rtfire1
Re: Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques

RIAA is far from perfect, but the sharing of music has to stop. My big problem is with people who deliberately steal music. There's a big difference between a person who burns a CD to keep in his car and the person who uses P2P to download thousands of songs. Stealing has gotten too far out of control. My brother in law works with a guy who has downloaded tens of thousands of songs.

Some use the rationale that 'everyone does it'. No, not everyone does. The rules need to be fine tuned for sure due to ambiguous interpretations. I've said it before and I'll say it again, "Performers have a right to be paid for their work." The same people who think this is acceptable, would be very unhappy if their boss decided not pay them for work performed.

The amount of money people earn from their music is in practice, no different from any of us who earn money at our jobs. Yes, they do earn more, but who are we to say what is or is not an acceptable level of income? No one has the right to steal the work of others under any circumstances.

Click to view rolandk10's profile New Member 5 posts since
Sep 21, 2006
11. Mar 17, 2008 11:15 AM in response to: samikey
Re: Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques
I agree. As I mentioned above I run a DJ company so I have a huge interest in people, especially competitors, not stealing music. I can't compete with a fellow DJ if he is downloading music and I'm paying 2,000-3,000 a year to keep up.
Click to view djsyntek's profile New Member 23 posts since
Dec 13, 2007
12. Mar 18, 2008 7:05 AM in response to: samikey
Re: Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques

Here is the thing. All the music I've downloaded has been either music I used to own and the cd's were lost destroyed or whatever. Or the music is so obscure that I can't find it in stores, be it in person or online. So to listen to the music I have to turn to downloading. Further more most artist get most of their money from shows, merchandise, sponsorships, and other deals and NOT from record sales. I have spent more money going to see favorite artist then I ever did on purchasing any of their albums.

For the guy comparing the car to stealing music: You are talking about a car you can't afford, no one said they could not afford the cd's. On another note, you still get to test drive a car before you buy it. AND atleast in Texas if you find 3 things wrong with a car, you can replace it with a whole new car or a refund. I'd love for that law o be applied to Music. I've bought so many albums that I've only heard one song from, went and got it, come to find out that one song is the only one worth anything.

Further more, alot of artist could use the fact that people download their music in turn means more people will know who they are and probably see more of their shows or purchase more of their merchandice. Great example of free music is Ok Go. They offered up the song via a music video free of charge via You Tube and rocketed them to fame.

Click to view samikey's profile New Member 8 posts since
Oct 22, 2006
13. Mar 18, 2008 10:40 AM in response to: djsyntek
Re: Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques
Yes, performers make the bulk of their income from concerts and not from record sales. That is still not a valid reason to download, just a rationalization for doing it. Most CD's only have a few songs that you like. It's not like this is something new. For those who have purchased music over the decades, this has always been the case. Illegally downloading is just another attempt at rationalization for getting a song or two for free. Don't want to pay for the CD? Don't buy it! These performers have a right to make money no matter how little it is. If a group wants their music out there for free, let them set it up as so. When a person works for a living, they have the right to make every cent they are entitled to. Would you want to do your job and then have the amount on your paycheck shorted, regardless if it's only a small amount? Just because the rules of the music industry don't fit your way of thinking, doesn't mean you can circumvent them. Only want one song? Find the legal means to obtain it.
Click to view djsyntek's profile New Member 23 posts since
Dec 13, 2007
14. Mar 18, 2008 11:55 AM in response to: samikey
Re: Lawsuit Could Force RIAA to Reveal Investigation Techniques

samikey wrote:Yes, performers make the bulk of their income from concerts and not from record sales. That is still not a valid reason to download, just a rationalization for doing it. Most CD's only have a few songs that you like. It's not like this is something new. For those who have purchased music over the decades, this has always been the case. Illegally downloading is just another attempt at rationalization for getting a song or two for free. Don't want to pay for the CD? Don't buy it! These performers have a right to make money no matter how little it is. If a group wants their music out there for free, let them set it up as so. When a person works for a living, they have the right to make every cent they are entitled to. Would you want to do your job and then have the amount on your paycheck shorted, regardless if it's only a small amount? Just because the rules of the music industry don't fit your way of thinking, doesn't mean you can circumvent them. Only want one song? Find the legal means to obtain it.
My paycheck is reduced give or take 20% of my overall pay. Thank you taxes. Plus I then get taxed .0825% on everything else. So total is 20.0825%, which means over 1/5th my money. Further more all the artist I listen to could careless if you got their music for free and many times do so at shows. Its the greedy popular arist who care. You know why, because they care more about the money then they do the music.

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